What to Do When Your Teen Makes a Big Mistake | Michelle Icard

You really have to go through some discomfort in order to get stronger. And we as parents are so uncomfortable with the idea of our kids feeling discomfort at varying levels, but not knowing who you're gonna talk to on the way to class and not always answering your kid's call while they're walking across campus because they don't know how to walk without talking to somebody on the phone is a good thing. I think there are a lot of things that we as parents can be doing to increase our kids comfort with discomfort, and that's how they get strong.

Welcome back to the Parenting Pair Podcast. I'm Dr. Annalise Caron.

And I'm Doctor. Suzanne Allen.

And we are thrilled today to welcome Michelle Icard to our podcast. She is an author and educator who has spent more than twenty years helping parents and educators understand teens and tweens, particularly in the middle school ages. She's the author of three books, including Eight Setbacks That Can Make a Child a Success, which explores how the mistakes and struggles and missteps that can be so hard for parents to watch and experience actually are opportunities for kids and teens and their parents to learn. Her work has been featured on the Today Show, NBC News, CNN, and The Washington Post. We're excited to talk with Michelle about how we can help our kids and our teens learn from their mistakes, build resilience, and develop the skills that they need to navigate the inevitable ups and downs that life throws us.

Welcome, Michelle. Thank you so much for being with us.

I am thrilled to be here with you. I feel like you are my long distance friends through social And of course, we've met one time in person, but it's good to be connected with you again.

We are delighted that you're taking the time with us. We're really excited about it.

And I wanna tell you, for anyone who has not read this book, which is just one of your books. Annalise and I were headed on a business trip to California when I was reading this a few years ago. And I was sitting in front of her. She was behind. And I I kept, like, lifting it up and shouting things to her.

Yeah. Because I was so excited. It's really excellent. And I really appreciated that you spoke about very difficult things in this book and didn't stay at the surface. And I think as a parent, I appreciated content.

Yeah. And lots of examples of really tough missteps that kids make that I think sometimes make parents so anxious or maybe ashamed. And Michelle just jumped right in.

I did. Well, you know, I'm a parent, and it's very... My kids now are 26 and 24. So... And they're doing great.

But I have been doing this work since they were two and four, and so I've seen it all. I've seen it through them. They've had a lot of missteps. I've seen their friends go through stuff. I've, you know, done the research, so I know it.

I know it, and I know it, like, in my heart. Yes. And and it's really important that we don't sweep these things under the rug for all the reasons that you guys know, even though it's very tempting to want to do that?

Well, I think it's so anxiety provoking for parents, right? You know, you want things to go well for your child or your teen, know, and I think it can be very overwhelming or cause feelings of shame for parents and great worry. And so we don't really like to to lean into things going wrong.

No. It feels it feels to many parents like an indictment of their own parenting if their kid does something wrong, which it absolutely is not. I mean, sure, it could be related. It can be... It can absolutely be related.

You don't get a free pass. Also, it's not necessarily a reflection on how you raised your kid. If your kid has a real big screw up, and especially a real big public screw up, and other parents know about it, good parents and good kids have to deal with all the time. So I I understand the impulse to try to keep it quiet, but I will tell you, of all the parents I interviewed for this book, every single one at the end, I asked them, when did it start to feel better for you, this struggle that you were going through? And everyone said the moment I talked to someone about it,

the moment I stopped keeping it all bottled up inside. In that same vein, I feel like I read in your book that you also asked them, would they wish it didn't happen? And upon reflection, is that right? They were glad that the misstep or the really difficult mistake happened.

All but one parent. That parent said, I might still be too close to this. And I think that's exactly correct. They said to me, now that we've gone through this, and as you know from reading the book, it is... Some of it is light.

Some of it is heavy stuff. Kids going to the hospital. Kids, you know, getting expelled. All kinds of stuff. And they said, I wish I could sort of take it away from me.

Like, it'd be nice for me not to have to carry this around. But my kid, what they learned from this is too valuable for me to erase this experience. And that's what we want. We want kids to learn and grow from these experiences, not to get stuck in that phase of development. So if we can help them process their challenges and mistakes and setbacks well, that's what happens.

And that's when really good growth occurs.

And what's so interesting, what it's bringing up for me as a clinical psychologist, I know I've said declines of mine over the year. Like, over the years, when we reflect back on our lives, we rarely tell the story of just when we got up and went to work or went to school and came home and went to bed and nothing changed. Right? If when we tell the stories of our lives, we tell about when the big things happen. And sometimes those are the exciting things and the wonderful things.

And sometimes those are the really difficult things that we came through who kind of gave us a new perspective or kind of made us who we are. We don't tell the story of our lives with, well, then I got up and I had breakfast, and that was a normal day, and nothing happened, and I went to bed. That's not the story in how we understand ourselves and how we grow. So it's a really good point.

I think there's a sense of pride, well earned pride, of overcoming a challenge. And that's a Rocky moment, you know? Like, it may be hard to come to terms with in the present tense. But in the future, when you're looking back and you're reflecting, I think we can say like, that was a crazy decision I made, or that was a bad bad bit of luck I ran into. You know, it could just happen, or it could be something that you you sort of brought on yourself through lack of experience or good judgment or whatever it may be, but there is a sense of pride in overcoming that, and there should be.

Absolutely. You know, one thing where I wanted to start with this conversation is your book covers a lots of different types of problems, mistakes, setbacks that tweens and teens can find themselves in. But relatively early in your book, you lay out and introduce this idea that your child has a Bill of Rights. Right? And you really say that it's important to keep this in mind when you're facing these difficult times.

Would you speak about this Bill of Rights? You know, what does that mean? And why did you sort of start early with that?

Yes. The idea behind the Bill of Rights is really to prep parents to understand that mistakes are going to happen. Bad choices will be made. Like, your kid is just learning how to be a person apart from you. You've made all the decisions up till now.

They have to practice doing that. And when you practice something, you're not great at it at first. And so it's gonna be messy. And I wanted parents to understand that you don't learn at the first shot. Everything isn't an epiphany.

Right? So like, oops, I made a mistake, and then I I realized never to hurt someone's feelings again. Or I realized never to, you know, be walked all over again. It takes time, many, many trials and error before you figure out where your boundaries are, what your values are, all of this. And so the Bill of Rights is setting that foundation for parents to be okay with this being messy and to...

And to give kids certain rights, like the right to privacy even when they're making mistakes. Now, certainly, there are times when privacy goes out the window because your child has, they're in a kind of danger that you need to monitor more closely. Let's say there's an eating disorder, and so you've gotta keep a close look at how they're feeding themselves. Or there might be conversations that they've had with people online that you know are dangerous, and so you need to keep a close tab on that. However, there still need to be places where your kid can have private thoughts and explore things privately, whether that's a diary or time in their room.

So that's one example. They have the right to privacy, barring some sort of physical need to keep them safe. They have the right to keep messing up over and over, even though you would like them to learn the lesson on the first try. That's very hard for most people to do. They have the right to form their own values that may not align with yours.

So it's this sort of process of becoming an independent person, an independent thinker is sloppy, and we need to prepare parents for that, and and not not have them think, if I discard this closely enough, my kid won't feel the pain.

It really felt very uplifting and respectful to me to our teenagers. And that's so important for your relationship with your teen when you're facing these missteps. So I found it very grounding, too, because I think you're right. When there's a big event or a problem that comes up, our anxiety can make parents want to clamp down. I know I've experienced that myself.

Like, I just want to control this situation. You know, but or I want to stop it, you know? But saying, like, they have the right to privacy. I don't have to be involved in everything. That actually goes a long way in working out and working through this misstep, right, if they feel a bit respected by the rights that you highlighted in your book.

Absolutely. There... It's so transparent, so awful to go through a challenge or a crisis like this and feel that you are being managed through it, sort of judged through it, analyzed through it. And naturally, we're doing that in our heads. Right?

Because we're like, uh-oh. What's this gonna lead to? We tend to catastrophize over these setbacks. And so we think, is my child an alcoholic? Is my child, you know, a narcissist?

Is my child never gonna be able to find friends? Whatever it might be. And when we are doing that out loud or we're sending signals that we're worried about this being bigger than it is, that can be stifling to a kid. So any chance you have to show them respect, to affirm them in this process, as you said, it's gonna go a long way in having them sort of calm down internally, regulate a little bit, and then be able to get the message of the lesson instead of being defensive about it or protective about it.

Yeah. And I I I think it's very hard, especially when things happen. Right? One of our resources that parents go to is to go online to search, you know, my child vandalized the school. What do I do now?

Right? Things like that. But I think all of us have seen that once we search things or even seem to say things out loud, that all of a sudden we start getting fed a number of other things and it doesn't turn off. And so I think your point of parents being afraid. Right?

Like, because they keep getting messages that they might miss something. Your kid really may have a substance use problem. Right. They are a narcissist or becoming one, and you're not intervening. And I think it increases hypervigilance because we don't wanna miss it.

And and those algorithms and those messages don't turn off.

Or you're part of a parenting board online, some kind of a group, and you say it... You say the thing, and then you get a parent who says, yes. My child did that. And now they're in a residential program, and now the re... Because that's their experience.

Mainly yours, but you jump to like, uh-oh, how do I guard against all of these things happening? And that's why in the book I say, find a person to talk to who you can really trust. You you have to talk about these things. You'll feel better once you do. But you wanna be thoughtful about who you go to.

And so it's really, I think, a smart idea to go to someone you trust and say, who should I be talking to about this? And we call it the whisper network in the book. But maybe that person can say to you, I don't have experience here, but I've... I know of a parent who does. I'm gonna put you in touch with them, and they had a really good experience with their therapist or whatever.

So finding that trusted person is really smart, and not just consulting ChatGBT, or the parenting group, or the great wide Internet.

Yeah. Because I do think even just from the perspective of teens in our office and young adults, you know, when something has happened, a mistake has been made. I think one of the hardest things for kids afterwards they talk about is it feels like they'll never be trusted again or they're always being monitored or watched. And it's really frustrating, and it feels badly for them, and it makes it hard in relationships to move on when you feel like someone always believes the worst of you, and they always will.

It's deeply unfair. And the process that kids are going through to become adults is really going up and touching the stove a bunch of times to say like, is this me or isn't this me? Is this group of friends over here, are they are they for me or not? Is this way of dressing for me or not? Is this ideology for me or not?

And so it's a lot of going right up to the edge to see what feels uncomfortable and what feels cozy. And if you worry about each and every one of those things, or you're constantly going back to check and make sure that your kid isn't... That they've learned a lesson or somehow. Your child becomes so distracted by that, they don't ever learn what hurts and what doesn't, what feels good and what doesn't, because they're constantly tuned into your response, not their response.

Well, let's take the... I'd like to build on that and just really... You suggested this when we... At the start of this. Can you just speak to why it's really helpful and crucial for kids to fail?

Quote, unquote.

Yes. And I I really dislike the sort of gimmicky thing that people say about, you know, well, Michael Jordan didn't make his basketball team or, you know, these sorts of things. That's not what we're talking about here. What we're talking about is adolescent development and the process that it takes to become independent, to become an individual. So growing up, you're sort of like, your parents pick all the stuff for you.

They arrange your play dates. They buy your clothes. They do all of the things that are... We as adults take for granted are expressions of our individuality. Who I hang out with, what I wear, what I believe, how I spend my time, all of that.

Parents do that for their kids until their kids reach middle school usually. And then kids wanna make these decisions themselves. And the way that it works is you're not always good at making decisions until you've practiced it for a while. And so often, you have to bump up against some kind of failure, setback, or challenge that you need to sort of solve on your own. When you do that, when you get experience separating from your group, your family, your parents, your friends, you face a challenge, you screw up a little bit, and then you say, okay, because I'm out here on my own and I've screwed up, I can pay attention to it and I can learn from it, then I'm a better person.

Then I can come back to my group of people. I'm better for the group because I've learned something. And I'm better as an individual because I know myself really well. Parents who don't let that happen, who keep their kids really tightly wrapped up because they're afraid of what mistakes they might make and what that will impact them in the future, they don't end up raising kids who are really comfortable going out in the world alone and standing up for themselves and standing up for others. So it is a crucial part of development that kids screw up and that they learn how to cope with that.

It's so validating to hear that. You know, I think it should be calming to people listening because it's true. You're really describing about building competencies. Right? And your kids and teens are gonna feel better about themselves when they do handle that mistake, and they grow from it, and have that autonomy and independence to figure out their problem.

Both of us have freshmen in college right now as kids, and I'm in conversations with my son. He's doing things that he never did before because he has to. Right? And there's growth from that. There may be mistakes along the way, but it builds competency.

I love it. I really think of it the same way that we think about going to the gym or exercising or something. Like, you have to tear to repair your muscles. So like, they have to be stretched. And and you can't just say, well, I'm lifting these two pound weights every day of my life.

That's me exercising. You're not getting any stronger doing that. You really have to go through some discomfort in order to get stronger. And we as parents are so uncomfortable with the idea of our kids feeling discomfort at varying levels. Obviously, are points where you need to step in because it's it's severe.

It's pain, real pain, and not discomfort. But, you know, not knowing who you're gonna talk to on the way to class and not always answering your kid's call while they're walking across campus because they don't know how to walk without talking to somebody on the phone is a good thing. Like, let your kid feel a little uncomfortable, a little lonely, a little uncertain as they navigate campus. Like, I

think there are a lot

of things that we as parents can be doing to increase our kids comfort with discomfort, and that's how they get strong.

So... Okay. So what... So our kids and teens have a bill of rights that we need to respect and maintain the relationship as life gets tough. Failures, mistakes, setbacks are actually good things that give us competency that help us grow.

Okay, but now here's the thing. When the big mess up comes, what do you do as a parent? Because that This all sounds great in theory, Michelle. But when the police get involved or when you get the very significant phone call or when you learn of something that really you never imagined and I think most parents experience this. You learn of the thing that happened that, Oh, that would never happen with my child, and it brings up all sorts of worries.

What do we do?

Yeah. I love that you said most parents feel that it's the thing that you never thought would happen. No. That's exactly it. I have a friend who's a psychologist, and this is like a little bit of a unrelated sidebar, but I I think of it a lot.

She said, you never die the way you think you're gonna die. Like, we all sort of have this thought of like, for me it'll probably be x, you know, or whatever. It's never the thing that you think. And I think with your kids, it's probably never the thing that you expect. So that's helpful to know that all families deal with this.

But when do you do? So say the thing happens, and it's a big thing. No matter what it is, I have a three step process that I think is very helpful. What you need to do is stay in your lane. That's your big homework assignment here.

So something happens. The first thing is, I think of this like a tennis game, so the ball is on your side of the court. Your job as the parent is to contain the problem. Uh-oh, my kid was drinking and they got so drunk that the police got involved. Right?

They party got busted, my kid got arrested, whatever it is. Underage drinking. And so you've gotta contain that. And contain can mean one of two things. If it's something like this, like a safety thing, you're physically containing yourself.

Their world has gotten too big too fast, and you need to shrink their world down. So guess what? You're staying home until we have time to process this and think about what's gonna happen next. You're not sending them out to the next party while you figure this out. Right?

So you're actually containing it. That, the ball is on your side. If you wanna think about containment in terms of your child hasn't done anything wrong, maybe they're being teased or bullied, and it's affecting their self esteem. So containment isn't like you're in trouble, you're staying home, but it's, I see that we have a problem here, and we need to corral this problem. So it could be just naming it.

This is an issue that we're gonna figure out next. That's the balls on your side, lane, you deal with that. Then you serve the ball to the other side of the court, your child takes the next action. So you've contained it. Now your kid needs to do something to resolve the problem.

We're talking about coping skills, resilience, building that strength, tearing and repairing those muscles. That doesn't happen unless your child takes an action. So in the book, are lots of examples of things that you can suggest or you can brainstorm with your kid, but they need to do something to feel better or to repair the problem. So that could be, I need to go to the parents who hosted that party, and I need to apologize that I was drinking at their house. That could be, I've decided to take Snapchat off my phone because these people are being really mean to me on Snapchat.

So the decision is in your child's court. They've got to do something. And then they do it, and the ball bounces back to you. And this I think is the hardest part for parents. You've contained the problem.

They've done something to resolve it. And now you have to evolve past the problem. And that's where you say, hey, that was a tough situation. You did something that's hard for most grown ups to do. You apologized.

You took ownership. You set a boundary, did whatever. And now we're gonna put it in the rearview mirror. I'm really proud of you. I'm not gonna keep asking you about it.

I'm not gonna make sure that you're always thinking about it. If you wanna talk about it, you come to me anytime. I'm here for you. But what you don't wanna do is keep pressing on the bruise because you're scared they haven't learned. Right.

So those are the three things. And if you can do that, your child is gonna learn to trust you that you don't hang on to these issues too long, and they'll continue to talk to you about this stuff.

It's so memorable. Contain, you know, revolve... Contain, evolve, revolve. So it's really helpful. The contain part really resonates with me.

I think there's so many examples where something happens, and then either a teenager or parent feels like, I have to do something now. Right? And containing is actually doing something. And I think there are lots of examples where sometimes containing is just not making it worse. Right?

Like, taking the phone away so we're not texting everyone about it, or maybe not responding to people who, you know, in your bullying example, who are bullying you. But like, that's a containment. You know, I think sometimes there's lots of different ways that this plays out. But with technology and whatnot, taking... The containment feels almost relieving to me because it's like a pause.

Like, let's get ourselves together because, wow, I'm really anxious as the parent, and you're really stressed out at whatever just happened. And let's... It almost feels like a gift, that containment, to be like... Because it's an awful thing. But like, okay, let's just, like, pause.

Is that right?

You're exactly right. And I think the thing that some parents do is they think that's the end. Contain. Well, I took their phone away. What else can I do?

Crete. Well, I told them, you know, they couldn't go out for a couple weekends. So hopefully that'll do it. That's only the first. That's the pause.

That's the first step. It's like, whew, we gotta corral this. It's getting really big really fast. Or I gave him a pep talk. You know, I told him everybody gets made fun of.

The most important thing then, it's got... The kids gotta do something. Because we want to raise kids who aren't waiting around for somebody else to figure out what to do next. And what helps is different for every kid. It may be helpful for me to journal.

It may not be helpful for somebody else to journal, you know? So it it... We really have to teach them to figure out what helps them cope.

I think kids also have really good ideas, right, in that middle evolve kind of stage. And sometimes they have better ideas than we do. So that containing them, once they have a chance to think about things, they may evolve in a way, if we allow them to, in ways that are better or different than we could have come up with. And I see that in therapy all the time with teenagers. They can problem solve and come up with ideas of how to move forward bravely, where I might be scared as if I were the parent or if I'm the therapist, like, Oh, are we ready for that?

But they can do it. We have to allow them to do that.

I really love that, and I'm remembering a time with my own child who had a big ish... Big setback, and it was public. And they decided... When I said I I think you you're gonna need to do this, they took it further and said, also wanna go to this other adult because they were there and they saw, and I really, it was their idea to bring flowers to that other adult and say, know, I'm sorry. And I thought, wow, like left to your own devices, you're really doing more than just the the bare minimum here.

So I love that you said that. They do have really good ideas.

And first of all, I agree with both of you said. I also imagine there might be some parents listening to this who are thinking or have been in this situation with their child or teen that they either had concerns about what they thought the repair or next step might have to be or were kind of stuck in a place where maybe they deeply disagreed about what had to happen next. I guess, what would you advise parents who maybe have less confidence or have had this experience where it's been a difficult middle part?

Yeah. I'm so glad that you asked this because I think we get really hung up on resolve has to be perfect. It has to be the right answer. So if your kid breaks a table at someone's house because they thought it'd be funny to get up and dance on it, You might be thinking, okay, clearly what has to happen is you're gonna write a letter and an apology, and then you're gonna start going over there and doing lawn work until you've earned enough money. Or you know, you're gonna replace the table.

Your your mind is spinning and you know exactly what to do. And your kid is thinking, what's good enough is if I apologize. And you're like, mooh, bare bare minimum there. Right? Your child isn't as experienced as you are.

They aren't as wise as you are. So a couple things could happen. You can say yes and. A little bit more needs to happen. Let's think about how you can get there.

Or I think a lot of times, if it's not as... If the stakes aren't as big, you can accept that your child is at a place where the most they can do right now in terms of their coping skills and their resilience is to offer an eye to eye apology. And they'll get stronger. Their bones... Their...

Oh, sorry. Their muscles are gonna get stronger here. They're just not there yet. They're 14. They're, you know, they're just kinda trying to do the best they can here.

And so what we're working for is not a perfect resolution. What we are doing is building strength. So maybe today, all they can do is go over and give an apology. Maybe they they get better and better at resolving problems, and they get to the point where they can do a lot more. They can multitask.

They can, you know, they can come up with better ideas. But don't get hung up on it being a really good resolve. Be proud that your child did something, and then next time, they'll be able to do more.

Yeah. It's such a good message. One thing that really resonated with me reading your book, and I think, if I remember correctly, this was more in the contain part of the contain, evolve, and resolve model, was the idea that you talk about just regardless of what's going on, affirming your child. So this big, terrible, bad thing has happened, whatever it may be. But you kept that in the fore, and you'd repeat it in very different situations.

You know, very significant ones that are involving legal issues, maybe smaller ones that might be briefly shaming or something we just have to quickly problem solve. But just it's so important to me. Like, when I mess up, I want to believe that the people who love me still love me and still see the good parts in me. But you came back to it throughout the book, and it was Just like your child's Bill of Rights, it really resonated with me, like, Ugh, so important to keep in mind because it's so easy to get into the catastrophizing and the worry. Was that really, you know...

It just felt so important to me. Why did you keep coming back to affirm your child? Because I think it's easy to forget that one.

It is easy to forget when you're mad or when you're worried. Some parents might think like, now's not the time. You know, that's what I do when they're being good. Right? But you do wanna send a message that, you know, you in heart and soul, are wonderful, and I love you.

And this is a mistake, and it's a challenge, but I don't ever want a kid to think that a mistake or a challenge is a reason not to engage with the world, not to maintain connections, not... These are lifelines. And you don't wanna raise kids who feel like making a mistake, even a really bad one, even a really dangerous one, cuts them off from the people who love them. Because I want to know when my kid goes to college, if if if they're not within my sights, and something bad happens that they still feel like they can reach out to me in times of trouble. That's like the most important thing to me.

So no matter what, no matter the incident, I would love for parents to be saying to their kid, like, we're a team and I have your back Even when the challenge feels really difficult or scary, we're gonna figure this out. I'm really glad

you mentioned that part about even within difficult moments or mistakes that we don't want people to feel cut off. And I think this brings me to something that I think quite often when I see a lot of people speaking online or on podcasts similar to this about the importance of kids being able to fail and offer that grace and space for that. And I think as a parent and clinician, I very often see and more increasingly have seen over the last few years that when a young person makes a mistake, whether that be riding their bikes down the street without a helmet, and I'm speaking about specific examples, or have posted something online or said something that's offensive, that very quickly throughout the news, parenting blogs, or Facebook forums

Facebook groups.

That not only are kids identified, shamed, pictures posted, criticized deeply. Families are isolated all the way to the extreme of, you know, getting phone calls and threats or wanting children kicked out of schools. And I think as a parent, that makes for me, I will I will fully admit, much more anxious and fearful about mistakes than I think I was, you know, years ago, and particularly as my kids have gotten older. Because it feels like even though I might be able to hold on to these principles and accept that they've made this mistake and help them make repairs and grow from this, I very much fear that we are living in communities that aren't on the same page with us about this? And and how how do we deal with that?

You're right. It has gotten increasingly public the way that we process other people's behavior, other people's choices, other people's mistakes. I think that we deal with that by being honest. Right? If we just think like, well, I'll just be in my little private corner.

We can't impact culturally what's happening around us. So I think it's important to say things like, hey, wouldn't post this pic or this seems unfair to this child. You don't have to get involved with trolls online. But I do think being willing to speak up on behalf of people who are being criticized publicly is really important. So saying like, I I don't feel comfortable talking about what that kid did at that party.

Like, I just feel like it could be anybody's kid. Right? So saying something like that is really helpful. Now, I want parents to be able to balance the idea of talking to someone about what they're going through, and not broadcasting their child's mistakes to the world. It is not up to the larger community to decide whether what that child did is appropriate or not, or age appropriate, or whatever.

So you wanna find people to talk to, and you wanna find a way to sort of publicly have some grace about the situation, but to keep your child's mistakes theirs so that they don't have to be judged by the court of public opinion. That's not fair.

I think that's so important. And what you're describing is what you're modeling as a human out there in the world to other people who may be passing judgment or to people online who may be passing judgment about other people's children. It does feel... You know, when Suzanne, you laid it out, it feels very scary and overwhelming. But it also feels like a real opportunity for us in community with each other because I have been places.

I've tried at times to speak in the manner that you described, Michelle. Like, I really think that could happen to anyone, and so I wanna... I hope that he's doing okay. That's it. You know?

Or, you know, I've I've even... When things are posted in these sort of groups on Facebook, taking pictures of kids making mistakes, and that's a part of growing up. Like, I don't think we need to post this.

You can message the If you don't wanna do it so publicly, you can message the admin of the group and just say, let's remove that child's photo. That doesn't feel right. We don't... It's not necessary to discuss what happened or to get help for what happened. There are lots of ways that you...

If you don't wanna be the the one who's like, hey, we shouldn't talk about that. Another angle would be to do it in a funny way and just be like, gosh, haven't we all? Remember our... We have to remember our own teenage years. You know?

And many of us who made mistakes our teenage years turned out okay. So you can do it in a way that feels like you're not judging other parents for doing it, but it's necessary, I think, to do something.

Yeah. I I agree. And I think sometimes people slip slip into it on... With no harm intended, and maybe even just relief, oh goodness, thank god my kid wasn't at that party, or they weren't the one thing. And so then it becomes

Or people should know this is happening. Right?

Like concern,

uh-oh, I don't know who these kids' parents are, or I heard this terrible story. We should be more aware of this. Right? So sometimes there's maybe what they believe is good intention of, we need to help these kids.

Right. So so things can get passed in that way. But I think the more that we, as community members, kind of speak up for other kids' right to make mistakes, to not have to call attention to them, Just... I I think the relieving that is when I have heard people say things like that, it's relieving to me, like, yeah, that's how we should be supporting each other and understanding kids. I also think maintaining friendships maybe...

Yeah. I think sometimes people get nervous. Oh, that child got in trouble, so maybe I'm not gonna affiliate with that parent anymore, or I'm not going to... And that's not helpful either. It makes...

I... Well, I know I was saying this too. I heard such a beautiful interview with Chris Rock the other day, and he was speaking about being tested in your friendships and that it's easy to be friends with people when things are going well. And when they do something that you don't like or maybe cross a line, that being a good friend is not ignoring that. It's actually calling that out and saying you may be uncomfortable.

You hurt people. You know, trying to help them towards accountability, but also not immediately going to, I'm gonna cut you out. You're not my friend anymore. Certainly, you have that right if they're bringing to a dangerous situation or continue, but that really caring for people and being in community people is showing up for them in really hard moments. And and your message feels very similar to that, whether that's parent to child or peer to peer.

I love that. I think that's so... It's it's so human. Imagine if we all had this standard of perfection, and if you mess up or your child messes up or your spouse messes up, that you're then isolated, that is a really cruel punishment for somebody who is going through an already challenging time. And as you said, it doesn't mean you have to condone what's going on.

Right. But it does mean may... Maybe you don't have to excommunicate someone. I wouldn't... I would hate to see that happen.

Yeah. Or or you don't have to spread it, talk about it. Just be respectful. I'm here if you need me. I've really appreciated this discussion today.

Thank you so much, Michelle, for joining us.

Yeah. Thank you for having me.

On the Parenting Pair Podcast. If anyone's listening today and thinks this really resonated with me or I know someone that something just happened to or maybe suggest that they get Michelle's book, Eight Setbacks That Could Make a Child a Success, maybe share this podcast with them. Because I think we all... Speaking of community, we all just need to help each other.

I know I appreciate it when people send me a podcast or when you share Yeah. This So thank you so much for Michelle for joining us. Please share the podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, go ahead and click follow. And next week, it will automatically pop into your feed.

Easy peasy. Look at that.

All right. And with that, everyone, have a great week. And now a quick word from our lawyers. The Parenting Pair Podcast is designed for informational and educational purposes only. Do not rely on the information presented in this podcast as a substitute or replacement for professional psychological or medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

If you have concerns about you or a family member's well-being, please contact a licensed mental health professional or physician.