Re-release: How Online Sports Betting Hooks Teens & College Kids: What Parents Can Do about It

Hi, everyone. It's Dr. Allen. And Dr. Caron And today, we're gonna rerelease our podcast episode on online sports gambling and adolescence because we feel like it's a really timely and important episode. And we wanted to add some updated information and some thoughts on it.

Yeah. There's really been a lot of

press, a lot of newspaper articles coming out lately, even in just the past two weeks. So if you're curious after listening, certainly, you know, look for recent press on it because there's lots of more information out there. But I think the time is right because we're heading into the holidays. Certainly, you know, in The US, we're about to have the Thanksgiving holiday. And then, you know, we have a number of holidays in the New Year in December.

So it's a time that a lot of people get together, watch playoff games and bowl games and, you know, and really enjoy time together. But it's also a prime time for online sports betting itself and also just the advertisement of online sports betting, like, during the games. Right?

Yes. Which has become louder than ever when you're watching sports. It's everywhere.

Right? It's it's it's on, you know, it's it's on TikTok. It's on the TV. It's on it's just it's it's just kind of around and normalized.

Yes. And then now recently, we've had so much more news around sports gambling, especially in The US given the recent scandal that's kind of taken place in the NBA.

Yeah. And there's and there's been a lot of press on that as well. And so how our teens are kinda digesting this information, you know, is important for us to think about. But let's let's see here. We know this may be going on the NBA, But if you're not in the NBA, Suzanne, because I don't know if you know I'm not, why should we care?

Why should we parents care?

Yes. Okay. So here's why parents we think parents should care about this issue. Gambling is not something that your teen is going to encounter once a year anymore at the Super Bowl party. It's on their phones.

It's in the sports culture, and it is being, as we just said, marketed to them every single time they watch a game or they just go to check a score. And in particular, teen boys and young men are really being pulled in quickly much faster, I think, than some of us even realize and in ways that we don't realize as I will reveal.

That's yeah. I I think that's that was it that it that it's different than how we might think of it, like betting on a game or betting on a horse race. There are actually a lot more bets than we realize if you're not, you know, doing online betting yourself. So in this episode that we're about to rerelease, we talk a lot about sort of how online sports betting has evolved and how it's made its way to our teens. Right?

But we also wanted to share a few key updates. Right?

So first, one type of bet that we really wanna highlight today before we get started is the game time betting or you might see it described as in play betting. So these are the bets that can actually happen throughout an entire game. Not like the ones where you bet on who's gonna win or lose before. So these could be on things like who's gonna win the coin toss or which player is gonna make the first free throw. So it's a very fast paced and kind of constant instant win kind of situation.

And this is really enticing to teenagers whose brains are kind of naturally wired during those teenage years for risk taking and sensation seeking and getting rewards. And then in particular when we have teens who may struggle with more impulsivity, the risks become higher. Because as we know, emotions run really high during sports and that makes any of us more vulnerable to poor decision making. So if you're a young person with kind of a predisposition or really a struggle with impulsivity Sure. The access and the ability to bet in this way can be particularly problematic and risky for you.

I mean and even before impulsivity or just the natural vulnerabilities of a developing brain as a teenager, I can imagine if you enjoy sports and if you enjoy betting, you know, and I don't know if if you're supposed to bet on the coin toss and if you miss that. But if you're going to bet on, you know, how far the first down's gonna be or how, you know, whatever it is, if they're going to get a home run or who's gonna get the first home run, it's like you lost that one. Oh, but there's the next one. So there's like always the chance of the next dopamine push. That's it's just a way that I think our kids are fighting things or are exposed to things we don't know about.

And I and I can admit that if I imagine if if my kids were betting in front of me, I might not know that they're betting on everything because it's probably happening the phone, and you might not know what's going on. This is And it

can be done very quickly and very easily.

Yeah. So the so that's one thing, the game time betting. Another thing sort of in this episode already, we talk about the link between video games and gambling. Right? And we talk about Fortnite as an example and the loot boxes in that.

But after recording so listen for that because that's part of what makes, you know, sort of as an entree into gambling sometimes through video games. But we, since recording this, have actually learned that those loot box sort of style purchases, they exist in sports games too. And I think there's a lot. I I think even myself, I think I've been lulled into the idea of like, oh, well, if they're playing a sports thing, you know, whether it's FIFA or Madden or what whatever it is, well, that's not violent. Right?

There are no guns. You know, maybe there's no, you know, sort of crass behavior that I might not want in some of those other, you know, sort of sort of games. And it's like, oh, they're just playing sports. So we might see it as the safer choice, but they actually still expose kids or are an entree to gambling type situations. So we just need to know about that to be able to foster conversations.

Mhmm. Yeah. So we're also in this episode talk about how sports broadcast market betting and gambling directly during the games. And, you know, I wanted to acknowledge that, you know, in my own personal life, and I wanted to share this with other parents that when my kids first got cell phones and smartphones and I allowed them to have kind of a first app and and Yeah. Husband and were very thoughtful about what app might be a a safe one for them to first use, that because, you know, my kids particularly like sports that ESPN or some of the other sports apps might be a safe and a good choice different from other social media platforms where they might encounter a lot of other videos kind of being pushed to them Sure.

Offhand. But since recording this, I realized that a lot of the sports apps now like ESPN show live odds right on the screen and actually feature sports betting sections right within the app. And so I clicked on my ESPN app and the menu items were right above all of the sports leagues that I could go to. The very first choice that I could Is that interesting? Was sports betting and bringing me over to live odds, and then would ultimately bring me over to an app where I could bet myself because you can't bet on that.

So, you know, not saying that those aren't things that our kids could have. I know my kids really enjoy checking the scores and being able to access what timed games are and and we use them as a family, but I want to share that information because it wasn't something that I was aware of particularly at the time that we recorded this.

Yeah. But what's so interesting about it, right, if it was an app that had the same information but was called sports betting live, I bet you wouldn't have given it to your kids. Right? Yep. Or your entree into sports betting.

But unknowingly, that's right there. Right? And so and it's kinda normalized. And I think and even just that, you know, in conversations might be something great for kids to learn. Right?

That that there's more than just the sports and that that can have implications. You're not quite getting, you know, what you think you're getting, and there are reasons for that.

Yep. And I think part of this larger discussion in this episode today is just that sports gambling and online gambling is now everywhere. And Yep. When it is everywhere, it seems kind of normal or maybe not such a big deal or, you know,

just Not a dangerous thing. Right? It seems not like it's not a dangerous thing.

Yes. Thank you for that. You know? So it's important for us to be aware of it so that we can have some discussions with our kids and teens around this. Right.

Right. So let's okay. So we've just dropped a lot of kind of like heavy or oh, these gals are really fun to listen to kind of stressful information. The

app. Scratch eye for this. We did it wrong.

And and and we're not saying that. I I do think there's a large subset of people that can, you know, gamble a little bit on sports and enjoy it and have fun, but we just wanna be informed. And we want our kids to be informed so they can make good decisions. So I think the good news is that you parents can make a difference. Right?

And so, you know, at the simplest level, you know, we can help our kids see that they may overestimate their chances of winning. If they dabble in this, right? If they get access through an older teen or a college friend or something, or if they find another way, you know, through an international app or something, share the statistics. You know, really point out because teens don't like being manipulated. Teens don't like thinking that they're going, you know, to one app to see sports scores, but that actually they're being drawn into somebody else making money off them.

Mhmm. And a really fun and interesting thing to do sometimes is I've you know, you can look up some of the founders of these apps or you know people who own casinos or things like that and find out how much their net worth is. And that's often something I've said to teens. You know, one of the founders of DraftKings, his net worth is estimated at over $300,000,000. And so I'll say to them, well, so if he's made over $300,000,000 owning the app, who do you think is losing and making him the money?

And and so pieces of information like that of like where does this person live versus where you know? Yeah. Can help crown them in a little bit of reality here that they're set up to to lose?

Right. They're set up. They're absolutely set up to lose. And also what they will lose is such a bigger percentage of, you know, their earnings from their, you know, whatever job at McDonald's or their babysitting or their allowance if they get one. Whatever.

However they may have, you know, have had a little cash. Is this really how they wanna spend it? Because it might go quickly. Mhmm. It's possible.

Another so sort of level set the odds with your kids. Also, really be okay finding ways to talk openly about him how gambling works. And we highlight this in this episode. We'll explain intermittent reinforcement in the episode. That's really the kind of reinforcement that kind of gets you stuck in gambling and wanting more.

I sort of describe, my own experience with the claw machine, like, at a diner, and how that intermittently reinforced me to believe that I could keep winning and keep getting toys out of the claw machine. So so listen for that. But help your kids see it just in everyday life. You know? If it's a carnival game or if it's a Chuck E.

Cheese or even in their social media feeds. Like, there are ways that we're kind of intermittently reinforced to stay somewhere, do something, buy something, or bet.

And when we ask them questions about it or ask them what they notice, like how hard it is to stop playing something, organize something, you're drawing them into the conversation, and it's less us telling them what the problem is. Yep. Getting them to kind of observe their own behavior and what makes it hard to stop. And that's a great discussion to be had around gambling.

Mhmm.

You know? And another tip we would give to parents, and we'll talk more about this in the episode as well, is just really staying nonjudgmental when you bring this up to them. We don't you don't know if your teen is already gambling or if they have friends who were gambling. And, you know, this gets very normalized. And when we sound maybe more critical of certain behaviors that can really shut our teens down.

And so just being curious and speaking respectfully about their friends or things that other people might be doing or that they might be doing, we'll probably keep that door open to some better conversations.

Absolutely. And finally, I think another thing just to remember is kind of model what you want to see. And that's true just like with anything. But teens kind of notice how adults around them participate, say in their fantasy leagues or how they react to sports teams wins. And it's absolutely fine to be excited about that.

But just how important that is or, you know, what place or level of interest if you do, you know, participate in online sports gambling, what place that takes in your life, be aware of that. You know, what are they hearing from you or seeing. Right?

Alright. So if you know another parent of a teen or tween or college student, we hope that you'll share this episode with them. We think it's really timely and relevant and an important issue for families. So let's get into the episode.

Alright. There was a Supreme Court case in 2018, that changed the law to allow that legalized sports betting.

I grew up in Las Vegas. Right? And so this is an area in which I actually feel quite comfortable talking about gambling or or, you know, hearing about this because growing up in Vegas, it's everywhere.

So you don't need to panic. You just need to be aware, and be aware that there's a risk possibly in your teens' pockets. Hello, and welcome back to the Parenting Pair Podcast. I'm Doctor. Annelise Karin.

And I'm Doctor. Suzanne Allen.

And today, we're going to dive into a topic head on, the rise of online gambling and sports betting. So this wasn't a question from a listener, it was more just what Suzanne and I are seeing in our practice. And so we thought that it would be really a good time to talk about it.

Yep. Talk about a couple things, the legality, cultural changes that are taking place and contributing to this, and for parents and for teens and young people to be educated on kind of warning signs or things to look for and to know about, and then for parents how to talk to their teens and tweens about this. Exactly.

All right, so we're going to jump right in with kind of what has changed because I noticed a real change at the time of the pandemic that suddenly once I was seeing kids not in my office anymore, but with them in their bedrooms and me in my house, that that typically boys were talking a lot more about sports betting on their phones. Yes. And this was new to me. I had never heard this before in fifteen, twenty years of private Yeah.

It wasn't really something that came

up very often. But since then, I hear a lot about it. It's becoming much more normative. And I thought it was just because of that time alone and maybe they got into the activity. But actually, there's been a change.

There was a Supreme Court case in 2018 that changed the law to allow that legalized sports betting. Right? So now 38 states have legalized sports betting. And of those 38, 29 allow online bets. Right?

So that's created this new industry, all of these apps that just make things a lot more readily available than they had been before. And there are, to be clear, there are age limits and it varies by states. Some states are 18, some states are 21. And the apps themselves, like DraftKing or FanDuels, I forget which one, requires you to be 19. So there are rules about it, but the enforcement is inconsistent.

And the thing about teenagers is they're incredibly creative and crafty, and so they can find workarounds. If they enjoy it or they're interested in it Mhmm. There are there are usually workarounds Mhmm. You know, to get there. And for someone who hasn't done a lot of gambling myself, and you know, certainly the parents I know, this kind of snuck up on us.

Yes, and it's been very interesting to me because I grew up in Las Vegas. Right. And so this is an area in which I actually feel quite comfortable talking about gambling or or hearing about this, because growing up in Vegas, it's everywhere. It's in the grocery store, it's at the drugstore, Everywhere you go, there was a slot machine or a poker machine. Your family went out for breakfast at the buffet at the casino on Sundays.

Right. So but it's been very interesting because to me, that's about my childhood and my life in Las Vegas. In other places that I've lived across the nation, that has not been part of kind of the community and the culture and the discussions, but I I've noticed that coming up more and more with young people. But what's so interesting is I think when you grow up in Las Vegas, you you see both sides of it. Mhmm.

And so certainly, while you might see people glamorously dressed at Caesar's Palace on a Friday night, you know, kind of back in the day, you saw billboards all around town as you were driving to your practices or to school that were advertising resources for people who had lost their homes or were in kind of hopeless and terrible states related to gambling.

Mhmm.

You know, when you went to that buffet on Sunday morning with your family, you saw people who had been there maybe most of the night, or were starting their day gambling, and sometimes the way the casino looked at that time was very different than on a Friday or Saturday night. You kind of saw the the less glamorous side of gambling, which I think I feel fortunate in some ways growing up around kind of a more balanced view of the highs and the lows of what gambling can be.

And I think that's really different for those of us who didn't grow up in Las Vegas because what you're saying is you really saw both sides and you have a more educated view, I would say, than many of us who didn't. And because growing

up in it, we had discussions about it within our household because it was part of our everyday lives. So certain things that my parents would just say kind of offhand, you know, like, the casinos always win. Like, in the end, no, the casinos win. Or my dad said, if you're ever gonna gamble, you know, bring a sound set amount of money to the casino, never use the ATM, Always decide how much you're gonna spend and end it there because it's set up to capture you and keep you there. They don't have windows for a reason.

They pump oxygen in for a reason. They change the lighting for a reason. They're working against you to win.

That's so interesting. Yeah. So that's an entire education. Speaking for myself, having been raised in Connecticut and not in Vegas, my education was a $1 lotto ticket that my family bought once a month maybe, and also that Kenny Rogers song. You know, you gotta know, know, hold them.

That that you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So so when you're coming from Different that orientations. Different orientations and culturally in the context, it wasn't really relevant.

Yeah. And I think what's interesting now, we have young people, 29 states, allowing online betting where they can just get an app in their pocket and they don't have those billboards and they don't naturally, you know, and I include myself in this, naturally automatically have those conversations because it's not visible.

Right? We might not know, right? Just as our teenager, you know, is sitting at home kind of scrolling around watching some fun sports videos or something like that, they might actually be gambling at the same time, and we just wouldn't know. So a lot of parents aren't talking about it or

addressing it because we just don't have the awareness that this is happening. And so this is really concerning because we know that youth are the fastest growing subset of gamblers in the nation right And am I right that it's youth males? Yes. Yes. Typically youth males.

And it's not gambling, because it's so accessible, we think, and oftentimes it starts free and fun and whatnot, it's not really perceived because there hasn't been as much messaging about it as dangerous or risky behavior by youth. Know, I mean, there's been a lot of messaging, you know, about drunk driving, right, for instance. And so youth know, you know, have that education because there's been a lot of push, you know, on that. There's been much less with regard to gambling, and that's just sort of beginning.

Yeah, and in fact it's actually quite enticing. You know, I love sports and my family loves sports, and we watch a lot of sports, we attend a lot of sports, but what is interesting is, you know, almost every other kind of commercial or even during the announcing of games, there are mentions of gambling or bets being placed. And very often, it's high profile celebrities and really funny, cool, interesting people advertising this or encouraging it. And you know, the offers are pretty compelling. Like, you don't actually place a bet until you win, so you can play this game that's so much fun for free.

And then when you win, sure, you can put in a little money. So it it there's nothing about it that appears kind of dangerous or threatening. Seems like fun, and games are fun.

And when you're hearing it from the sports commentators and when you're picking up TikTok and people advertising it on TikTok, it seems exciting. Right? And and something so it's very understandable how people get enamored with it or interested in it. And so let's talk about how teens get access, right? The reality is in 29 states, they can just download an app, right?

Yep. And so once you've got the app, there are limitations on the app. So Yes. You know, but teenagers find workarounds for that. The limitations being, you know, you have to be age 19, say, or you have to be 21, depending upon the app.

So there is just a subset of young college students who now legally have access, right, and can get a little bit in slippery slope, you know.

If you're younger, maybe you have an older sibling that might help you out on that one, or maybe because you're watching a football game with your mom or dad, and they're gonna let you do it under their account for a little bit for fun. Right. And, you know, some teens have fake IDs as well, so they're able to use those IDs to upload it. And there are also international kind of overseas apps.

That's what I have heard about a couple of times from kids, that some of the apps that are easily accessible here do have those limitations and you might need to upload documents that they don't have. But if you go to international ones that don't have as many restrictions, it's just an entree in. Another thing that I've heard about, and I think you've mentioned to me as well in the past, is people starting with apps or betting on apps that don't even involve money. Yeah.

Right? That are just kind of online poker games or online games. And then the teens themselves are kind of outside of the the virtual world are putting money into a pot

and gambling Right. With it. But those sort of private transactions outside the apps actually can really add up and really are expected to be paid and it hurts friendships and it stresses out teenagers and it can be in a similar way to to the app itself, someone enticing, someone enthralling, but it also can get you in trouble.

Mhmm. And it's hard because I want to come at this from a balanced place of, you know, games are fun I think growing up, right, some of us had the experience of, you know, a Super Bowl, know,

a betting pool Kentucky Derby. Bakari. Throw a dollar in for your horse.

Yep. So every once in a while, you know, you got to do this fun thing and kind of have access to it and and sure, maybe it made the game a little bit exciting. Right? And I grew up in a family where we did play a lot of games on weekends, and sometimes we did play poker and played, you know, different things together. So I I certainly don't want to be so kind of black or white about this, that like, you know, this is wrong and this is bad, or that all kids who are engaging in this are going to become gambling addicts, because that's also not true.

100% not true. But, there used to be kind of more barriers around this, or it was only a certain time of year, or it was just kind of harder to access, so it probably helped all of us keep some of these things in check because you just couldn't do it or it was hard to do, whereas now it's really a lot easier to do it.

And what's interesting, another sort of avenue here, and in a similar way, not to be fearmongering in any way, but just for parents' knowledge, one route that's been studied that, has actually been priming kids or sort of, like, introducing gambling before they're gambling to them is through video games. And so there was a study in 2023 that showed kind of kids who play were heavy gamers. Mhmm. So I'm not talking about kids who game on the weekends or game a little bit, you know, half an hour after school before they do homework. Not Yeah.

Not that sort. But really heavy gamers, a lot of the video games have what's called loot boxes in them. Have you heard

of that? I have. Yeah.

And so what a loot box is is you pay for it with real world money and within the video game, but then you don't know exactly what you're going to get. Right? So for for example, you could potentially get a really cool skin for, you know, your avatar that you're playing the game with or a really cool, I don't know, sort of tool or weapon or whatever it is, but you don't know until until you get Sounds like the price

is right or one these awesome games. Right.

Like the door is closed and you don't know what you're what you're getting.

Lift up the curtain. What's behind it?

So the value is unclear when you're putting the money down. You don't know what you're going to get or not get. And there's a real, you know, similarity to that. It's kind of based on chance, and that is similar to gambling. And this is has became, you know, such a concern.

It's these things are kind of designed to keep you in the video game because it gets exciting. If I get just one more loot box, which, of course, gets more money to the to the video game, then maybe it'll work this time. Right? And so it tends to kids more interested in the video games and want to do them more. But there's also a path from heavy gaming in games that have a lot of loot boxes to it's predictive of, associated with not everyone goes this route Mhmm.

But with a higher likelihood of getting involved in online gambling after. So that's it's just, again, an interesting thing for parents to be aware of, right? And could foster conversations just around even a young child. Because a lot of these games are advertised for kids, you know, or it's supposedly reported that this video game is for age 12 and up. But they might have these loot boxes in them, but really like eight and nine year olds are playing these games.

So they're kind of getting used to this way of gaming. Right? Yeah. But it could be interesting just to have conversations with your kids about, hey, you know, did you they might not call it a loot box. Yeah.

It's gonna be called something else in in the particular game. Yeah. But how did that feel? Have you ever gotten the fancy skin? You know?

Like, I wonder just in a very light and easy way. Because you might be able to point out, wow, you've bought eight of those and you've never once gotten the skin you've wanted. What do you make of that? Just to get them thinking, you know, kind of about how this works because what's happened is kind of the lines between you know, so almost like gaming and gambling or, like, taking risk within a video game, it's kind of blurred.

Yeah. They've blurred a little bit.

Yeah. It's interesting too. I was talking to my son last night at dinner about the fact you and I were gonna be, you know, having this podcast

today. Too.

Yeah. And, he immediately said, oh, mom, those those have been restricted. And I said, what do you mean? He said, oh, yeah. They were in Fortnite.

The loot boxes were in Fortnite, but it was amazing to me. He said, in 2019, they took them away. I said, in 2019, you remember the year? He said yes. And so I went and looked it up online, and he was right.

And he said, yeah. Those those aren't allowed because they're unfair. And so it was really interesting, but then I read, and they're actually not allowed in multiple countries in that particular game. Other games still have them, but multiple countries are looking into this because they're worried, you know, about where this is going for kids. And so Fortnite took them out.

Fortnite used to have them in the save the world. He explained this to me. There's multiple versions. There's battle royale, and they're save the world. Yes.

Save the world used to have the loot boxes. They were taken out in 2019, but our Federal Trade Commission, which is what I found after I had this discussion with my son, is looking into putting more and more restrictions on this because of this, you know, concern.

Because of the concern, the link between?

Yeah. That it's That it's gamble. That it's

kind of priming the brain.

Priming the brain, and it's a little bit of playing a gamble within a video game that's really being advertised to young children. I have to say, I think in very minor ways, you know, in games that even, like, young kids play, like young elementary and, you know, some preschoolers, I think some things pop up. Oh, just you know, dual because I I do remember, and this is years ago now because my son's 17, him coming to me, you know, if he had his screen time for thirty minutes when he was little, Oh, can I get this? And I was like, Do I have to pay for that? No, you're not going to get that.

But I think it's even built in when kids are really young, this idea of, Oh, I pay.

I think so, too, and it's funny you bring that up because we had that come up a lot, and one of the things that we just did is kind of, know, a little bit, to be honest with you, because as a parent sometimes I did that like, oh, let's talk about it later, or bring that back to

me in

a few minutes, and then I would hope that they wouldn't come back to talk to me about it. So but we we did openly kind of discuss this with some of the gaming things when my kids were little, or of like, oh my gosh, like, of course you want it right now, it's popping up, and it looks amazing, or you could buy this thing, or, you know, Fortnite was kind of sorry to be down on Fortnite, but, you know, like, this is not going to come back. This skin might not be back for another year or two years, right? So that feeling of like, if I don't get it now, I'll never And be able to get so we did a lot of like practicing delay of like, know what, sometimes in the moment it's like you really, really want something, but if you wait twenty four hours, if you wait one day or two days, you might feel differently about it.

That's great advice.

And and so that was just something that we practiced, and then if my child still wanted to spend money from their allowance or whatever it was on the thing a day or two later, they got it. And did I always approve of, you know, the skin or the whatever the thing? No, but I I felt like to me it was like an exercise in in learning about kind of impulse control, and like this idea of like, and and then waiting. That might be the

idea for That's a great idea. That's a really great idea. You know, what we're talking about here, whether it's sports betting or whether it's loot boxes within video games, what we're really talking about is the idea that behavioral psychologists know about of intermittent reinforcement. Right? And this is something with, you know, tweens and teens you can talk about just to have them be educated if they're open to it, if there's a you know, just from a place of interest to them.

Yeah. It's interesting. And and what it And

to help them better understand themselves. Behavioral psychologists, if you want

to make a behavior stick, you use intermittent reinforcement. Oh, yeah. Okay. So what do we mean by that? So if you look at studies and you think of, like, you know, mice or rat, you know, rats who can get a reward, and if they have a bar and they press the reward, and every time they press the reward, the pellet comes, they they press it for a good bit, but then they stop.

Right? Because their their tummy gets full and they're set, and they know if they press that bar, they're gonna get the reward, so they stop. Predictable. And predictable. That's, you know, sort of consistent reinforcement.

If they press the bar two, three, four, five, six, a 100 times, and no pellet comes, they stop too because they know that bar doesn't work. Right? But the kind of reinforcement, that's just no reinforcement at all. There's nothing there. I'm going to stop.

So if there's regular reinforcement or no reinforcement, the behavior stops. But if that pellet comes at a random variable time, so it comes after three pushes, and then it comes after 15 pushes, and then it comes three times in a row, do you want to know what happens? The rat pushes more and more and more and more because I just had it. I just had a pellet. And then if it goes 30 times, right, they push faster and faster and faster.

And that's what's what's happening, right, with gambling. Like, what about this next bet? What about this next time I get the loot box? It might happen It this might happen.

And it was so awesome when it did happen.

You know the reward is coming. You know the reward is coming, but you don't know when. And that's what, you know, what gets people stuck. So, it's just a your point of discussion. I describe it to people in clinical sessions that I've had as, you know those things in diners sometimes that's like a big glass box and it has toys in it and it has the claw and you can put in 50¢ and you can try to get the toy?

I feel like that is a perfect example of intermittent reinforcement because in my entire life, and I'm 50 and I'll admit it, I've probably played 20 times at least, I got it once. But I know now that I'm impressed.

You got it once.

I got it. I got it once. And so it's like, maybe I'll get it this time. And I bet you get in my throat. And it

picks it up and it carries it over

and then

drops it at the last second where you're like, ah.

But that maybe next time is the thing that keeps us going back, right? Maybe next time with the loot boxes. Oh, got it. Maybe next time. Yeah.

Maybe the next bet I make. And that's just from, you know, sort of a brain standpoint, what's going on, what we're thinking, what keeps us, you know, going there.

And it hooks all of us, adults as well, right? Know, intermittent reinforcement is powerful for all of us, but when we think about the developing human and child and teen and the development of the prefrontal cortex, the impact, right, of these types of games is significant.

Right, well, the dopamine pushes greater for our teens and so it's even more exciting and that inability to kind of put on the brakes in their brains like this isn't, it's hard for all of us, you know, but it's particularly hard for teenagers.

Yeah. Because if it feels even better, why would you stop? Like, it's going to appear less dangerous because it's that much more reinforcing.

And so, I think what we need to sort of take a pause and think at is like, what do we need to watch for? What do we need to be concerned about? You know, if you're a parent listening to this, we don't want you to be unnecessarily worried because I will be clear. My children have played video games. My one of my children regularly plays, you know, video games that I guess historically had loot boxes in it, I didn't know that.

Same. Same. Only learned that in the last few months.

Yeah. So Oops. But so it's not that they can't do it, but just knowledge is is important. Yes, because I do

I know we've this probably has sounded in some ways intimidating or kind of scary, and I fear that I don't want parents to listen to this, and all of a sudden when their teen is on their phone, or if a teen is if you're watching sports together and they get really upset that their favorite teen loses, to all of a sudden be Yes. Are you upset because you're losing money at this?

They're upset because they're really into the game. Right? But the times when maybe you should be a little more curious, maybe it is a sign, like kind of what to watch for in your teen or tween Might with regard to this be missing some money. Missing some money. Or maybe missing more money than you start to miss.

Asking for money a little bit more, increased irritability more than normal or like almost excessive involvement in multiple games. Yeah. You know, it's not just their favorite team, you know.

Yeah. Now they're watching many teams or many different sports, and maybe with an intensity and kind of checking their phones

Feels at different. Same Yeah, that feels different. And of course, like anything else, withdrawal from other activities. So, if suddenly they're not doing the things that they used to be doing, paired with some of the other things we've just mentioned, it might be something to get curious about. Right?

So I think that kind of brings us to what now? Right? And I think we want to start with, parents, this larger system is out there. We're not looking for you to change or fix it, and don't feel like you have to, you know, run and drill this into your teen or tween today, right We're

stay on top of it and know everything about it because, like we said, we just learned about loot boxes recently years after our were playing them. So it is it is a system that is very difficult to kind of constantly know what's happening next. Right. So you don't need

to panic, you just need to be aware and be aware that there's a risk possibly in your teen's pockets. So I think it's always helpful just, you know, as you're going about your life in the next period of time, if you have a teen or tween that may, you know, that you might be aware is betting or you might be curious about it, discuss, hey, you heard about this? Right? Just be curious. Not coming in with a lecture, not coming in saying this is a terrible thing, because it actually is fun for a lot of people, you know, in moderate amounts.

That's fine. Mhmm.

Right? And most people won't develop a gambling addiction.

Yep. And just bring up that discussion in a nonjudgmental and curious way and see what they say. And you may if in that conversation, there are really concerning things that come up, wonderful. Now you've had that conversation, and then that's a jumping off point to go from. Or it might be just an opportunity to listen to hear their perspective, and I would always hear the teen's perspective first because you'll learn a lot, just like I learned from my son last night.

Right? And contrary, most of the time, right, they think we're coming in anxious, worried, controlling, paranoid about things. Their attitude towards this may be much lighter and easy breezy, and like, yeah, everyone's gambling. Like, it's not a big deal. What's the big deal?

Yeah. And then you can validate that perspective. I get it because, you know, and then, you know, in a gentle way, can say, you know, these are the things I wonder about. These are my concerns that I that I play with in my head. What do you think about that?

And just let it be out there. Right? And that could start a discussion. It also signals to your kid, I can talk about these things, which I think is always useful. If you do, though, think that your child may have a problem, your child or teen may have a problem, of course you can see your pediatrician or you can encourage your teen themselves or you yourself to call or text a gambling hotline, +1 800 is is a good option.

So, yeah. And if you are looking for kind of a natural opportunity for these conversations to come up and your teen or tween watches sports,

sit down with

them for a couple minutes because it will show up on the screen and it kind of gives you an opportunity to say like, Oh, I'm hearing a lot about this. Yeah. And see what they say. Great advice. So with that, I

think we'll wrap up for today. And just as always, if you have any feedback or questions, don't hesitate to contact us, on Instagram or email us at hellotheparentingpair dot com. And next week, remind me, Suzanne, what are we doing next week? Well, kind

of going along with sports, we are going to talk a little bit about all of the great opportunities that you can parent through sports. Yeah. Kind of ways that you can connect with your teen or tween as a as a parent of an athlete.

Sounds good. I look forward to it. Have a great week. And now a quick word from our lawyers. The Parenting Pair Podcast is designed for informational and educational purposes only.

Do not rely on the information presented in this podcast as a substitute or replacement for professional psychological or medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. If you have concerns about you or a family member's well-being, please contact a licensed mental health professional or physician.