Sleep Struggles in Tweens and Teens: Insomnia, Nightmares and When Parents Should Seek Help

There's a lot of research to support the kind of negative impacts of kind of chronic sleep deprivation. First is that exacerbation of anything that they're already experiencing. So if you have a child that already has anxiety, depression, ADHD, chronic sleep deprivation is going to make any of that worse.

Generally, sleep, right, even from little, little babies, right, we know they need so much sleep because that's when their brain's developing, that's when they're growing. And that's the same thing for adolescents. Right? They still need that sleep time for their brain to grow, to develop, to recharge.

Welcome back to the Parenting Pair Podcast. I'm Dr. Suzanne Allen.

And I'm Dr. Annalise Caron.

And today, we're welcoming back two clinical psychologist, Doctor. Alison Shale and Doctor. Andrea Roth, who were with us on a previous episode discussing sleep and adolescent and tween sleep. And they have written an incredible book, The Essential Guide to Children's Sleep, a tired caregiver's workbook for every age and stage that we would highly recommend. It is a excellent, very in-depth evidence based book, but also very easy to read and digest.

So kind of a win for all parents out there who don't have time to read a 500 page guide. I would recommend this nice. If you're watching, you can see how lovely and nice and thin, yet it's chock full of really good information.

So why don't we you know, maybe if you could just explain to us what is insomnia and why should we be concerned with it?

So I think in this population, we're talking about pediatrics, talking about children and adolescents, insomnia in general is effectively the difficulty or inability to initiate sleep or fall asleep, maintain sleep, so stay asleep, or getting up too early. That's kind of how we will blanketly describe that, and that's how we see it often in adults. And so in pediatrics there are two subtypes of insomnia, one that focuses more around limit setting, so again this kind of phenotype maybe of the child who struggles to listen to boundaries and kind of follow that structure. And then also a sleep association subtype, which is the type that really requires something or more likely someone to fall asleep and stay asleep. So again it is that difficulty falling asleep, staying asleep, or waking too early.

And in childhood it's really looked at mostly from that behavioral lens of those two types.

And when a child or teen struggles with that, right, and depending upon the subtype, of course, that would that would impact sort of how one might clinically respond, you know, address that. But if they are struggling with insomnia and getting maybe not enough sleep or really struggling to be effective in doing so, How does that impact them sort of in their daily lives? Like, what are the risks or concerns? Why why should we, you know, really attend to this?

Yeah. You know, sleep impacts so much about our health, our growth rate, our mood, our ability to focus, our ability to concentrate. You know, one thing that we talked about in our last podcast was this idea that we we rely on our adolescents to tell us a lot of what they're struggling with. Sometimes it comes out in those gripes of I couldn't book I have no clue what's on the mouth test because I just couldn't focus today. Sometimes it's just the general complaint of, oh, I'm so tired.

I can't keep my eyes open. It can also be the kid who every day comes home and says they need a nap, you know, like, religiously has to take a lengthy nap after school. And we know, you know, just generally sleep, right, even from little little babies. Right? We know they need so much sleep because that's when their brain's developing.

That's when they're growing. Yeah. And and that's the same thing for adolescents. Right? They still need that sleep time for their brain to grow, to develop, to recharge, all of those sorts of things that then impact them.

I hate to say the word behavioral again, but then they really come out. We see it more in teens coming out behaviorally with their mood, with their attitude, with their focus, all of those sorts of things. And we know, you know, you know when your kid is overtired. Your your 15 year old overtired is maybe short with you or a little snippy. And so they might not feel that as a reason that they need more sleep.

Right? Because they're quick to say, I wasn't yelling at you. That wasn't me being nasty. I'm not in a bad mood. So, you know, a lot of those things that we wait for them to tell us can be our signs that there's some sort of issue going to sleep.

And even with our older kids, right, with our younger kids, yes, it's more likely they're, you know, coming out of bed a million times at bedtime. But even with our older kids, some of them are coming out a lot too and saying, you know, they just can't sleep. Or you hear them maybe you're in your own bedroom and you hear them flushing the toilet. You hear them getting a drink of water. So sometimes they don't even realize that it's taking them a long time to fall asleep, or that they're up for a long time even with great sleep hygiene.

And so again, sorry. I went, like, in a million different directions with that an No. But there's so many different things we might notice on the outside, and then there's also those things happening on the inside that they're missing out on by not sleeping enough.

But I think those are very good cues, you know, for for for the adolescents. They might be complaining of fatigue. But I think sometimes we parents, that's just one of the many list of complaints. But if it's a chronic one Exactly. You know, sleepiness or excessive fatigue is something to pay attention to.

Is it fair to say, is it correct to say, that with chronic sleep difficulties, whatever it might be, whether it's leading to insomnia and not getting enough sleep or whether it's another clinical sleep issue, that can lead to other mental health concerns or can make some maybe other mental health concerns that are there more significant, like anxiety or depression or anything else. Would you speak to that at all?

Yeah. I think there's lot of research to support the kind of negative impacts of chronic sleep deprivation. First is that exacerbation of anything that they're already experiencing. So if you have a child that already has anxiety, depression, ADHD, chronic sleep deprivation is going to make any of that worse. And then there's also research to really support difficulties in other realms of life around academic success, as Alison mentioned before, kind of these more executive functioning type aspects, there's a word, of you know, focus and things like that.

And then there is even data to support the idea that there's physical ramifications, medical well-being, obesity, high risk of obesity in older children. And then even in adolescents more high risk behavior is linked to more chronic sleep deprivation as well, so substance use, etcetera, things like that.

I know that you mentioned some of these kind of differences with younger children, but I just want to acknowledge, and there may be parents out there thinking this themselves, you know, I've found in clinical practice often this takes time and some building of trust because there can be a lot of shame around this, but I do actually find that a lot of adolescents still might be going into their parents' bedroom or having a parent sleep in their room. I think that's something that often doesn't get discussed, and I think rightfully so in terms of our teens' privacy, not sharing that maybe with the neighborhood or the sports team. But I think it's something that a lot of families wind up feeling kind of embarrassed about, or teens feel very embarrassed about, and so they they don't necessarily seek help for that because that's something little kids do. Right? And now you have your 16 year old son who crawls into bed.

But I'm curious, do you see that as much in in your practice? And and then how do you address that?

Yeah. So, you know, it's funny because sometimes when they get to that 14, 15, 16, that is actually when they're saying, like, I hate that I'm still coming into your room at night. They are, like, embarrassed for themselves. It means maybe they can't have a sleepover. They're nervous for that, you know, band trip to Disney World in tenth grade because they can't be in a hotel room, like, without mom or dad.

So, you know, I actually find that some of those kids are the ones that actually maybe a parent has said, like, I don't care. I love you. Come in as much as you want. And We're holding on. Right.

Yeah. Like, they're just holding on. They're just happy to have, like, a little extra snuggle. Like, what could be so bad about this? And then their kid says, like, I, you know, I really don't like this.

I think generally, there is such pressure and you know, stigma's not the right word, but around sleep. Right? Everybody wants to know from the day your baby is born, are they a good sleep? How much do they sleep? When does your kid go to bed?

How late? Right? You hear it. I was at a soccer game for my own son last night, and people were talking about what time do their kids go to bed. I mean, it's just everywhere.

And so, yeah, I think that for our older kids, there can be sometimes shame and embarrassment, but I actually really do find that those are the kids that are often asking for the help, because they don't like it. There comes a point where they kind of don't like it or it's really stopping them from things. Maybe they wanna try a sleepaway camp or things like that, and they just really feel like they can't. And and so I actually think that sometimes that's such a motivating factor. But, yes, parents do not tell other parents that their kid at 15 is still coming into their room, even though many other parents would go, oh, yeah.

Mine did too.

Right. Yeah.

They won't there's they don't want camaraderie on that.

It's interesting you bring up because I I think this is where in adolescence, right, there's more external pressure and social pressure on kids because there are some other concerns. Enuresis. Can you speak a little bit about some of the other maybe more kind of clinical issues that are related to sleep that can impact teens and tweens who, like you said, wanna go on the band trip or sleep over a friend's house.

Yeah. You know, one thing that we talk about all the time, and this is probably written in the book like 10 separate times, is that we ask a lot of questions about the medical stuff. And we will very often tell people to go see their pediatrician. Go see some specialist. Go see that because, you know, the medical side of something like enuresis or wetting the bed, the medical side of snoring and sleep apnea and things like that, those things really need to be handled before we can work on your child's worry about going to bed.

Right? If there's a real medical reason why they are wetting the bed at fifteen or sixteen, then that really needs to be handled. And me trying to convince them, you know, or setting an alarm or things like that while behaviorally kind of make sense, they might not be able to do it. And, from that buy in piece, I want them to know, like, this is real. I know you're not just choosing to wet the bed.

I know you're not this or that. I know this you know, sometimes it is just laziness, but it's usually not. You know? So we like to refer back to our medical friends to help people get those things under control and then come back to us, and then we're happy to help from maybe there is anxiety then still about wetting the bed or what will I do if I wet the bed at sleepaway camp or something like that. So sometimes we can deal with it medically, and then we can help people come up with plans for what will you do if it does happen again, just to help kids feel a little more secure in it because, of course, that you know, understandably, that would be embarrassing to sleep at a friend's house and have wet the bed.

Just on this topic because I imagine people may be listening with, you know, the the 15 or 16 year old, but maybe they also have, you know, the younger sibling who's nine or 10. Right? So in you know, speaking of enuresis and specifically, meaning wetting the bed or having difficulty, you know, waking oneself if they need to use the restroom in the middle of the night. It's another whole issue. But regardless, when would you say it leans over into describing that 15 or 16 year old as you should really see a medical person?

When kids are younger, we do say like this, you know, over time they may grow out of this. What is sort of the age or stage where a parent maybe should seek a little more medical advice on that issue?

So I think it's so interesting, you know, because I think we come across pediatricians that will say seven. I I think seven is the number that I hear the most often, but I have also come across pediatricians that effectively will say it's an issue and it's an issue to them. I don't care until they care. If they're okay wearing the pull up, I'm okay with them wearing the pull up. So there is I think this little bit of disparity in the kind of consensus around it.

I think the number that I hear the most often is seven. But regardless of that, I think Alison's right.

I think there are a

lot of behavioral things that we all do to help with enuresis and bed wetting and there's a lot of behavioral strategies that we can use. But I think even when we are doing that, at least in our clinical practice, I would still recommend, you know, you should still meet with your pediatrician, make sure that there's nothing kind of medical underlying this because we don't want to kind of put a behavioral band aid on something that's a little more, you know, medical And or so no matter what, we kind of usually will say talk to us, but also talk to them.

Cliff, would one of you be able to speak to some of the more common tween and teen parasomnias that, you know, concerns that come up in sleep that might not be as frequently known or, you know, common, but but that also can scare parents a lot or be be of concern. Could you speak a little bit to that and what to do?

You asked about parasomnias in teens and tweens. The good news is that by teen, tween, a lot of those very big scary parasomnias in theory should have kind of gone away a little bit by then, because parasomnias, or very wonderfully, elegantly put, like weird stuff that happens while we're sleeping, undesirable stuff that happens while we're sleeping. Things like sleep terrors. So your child is possibly sitting up, thrashing, screaming bloody murder, or sleepwalking, pretty self explanatory, or enuresis counts as one. Those sorts of things, those tend to peak at a much, much, much younger age, closer into like kind of like early childhood preschool age, and then tend to taper a little bit as kids get older or they will shift into something called a confusional arousal, which is like the cousin of a sleep tear, but really innocuous.

It might be a little bit longer, but it's much more innocuous. It's like I'm possibly getting up out of bed, I am sitting up, I might look very, very awake, but I am speaking probably not fully English or making a lot of sense. I'm not really there because I'm not really fully awake. That's a confusion of arousal. And that's what we see a little bit more commonly in teen and tween children, teen and tweens.

So again, that big scary stuff, sleep terrors, big sleepwalking, things like that, those tend to fade or shift into teen when they're teens and tweens.

Should parents be concerned if there's confusional arousal or sleep talking or, you know, are those indicative of anything or are those just like you said, kind of quote unquote weird weird things that are

involved in home?

They're They're great, sorry, they're great data points. I think the good things to know about this is that there's a good hereditary loading, so if you have a biological parent that experienced things like this as when they were young, the child is much more likely to experience them as well. And they're not uncommon to happen every once in a blue moon, but if you're seeing them happen on a regular basis, it can be indicative of the fact that the kid, the teen, the tween, is not getting enough sleep as a whole. And so you want if you look at them and they're not obviously sleep deprived in the sense of like, my eight year old sleeps from 08:30 to seven or 08:30 to 06:30. She's getting enough sleep, that's so odd.

She doesn't wake up, she doesn't wake up during the night, she goes to bed pretty quickly, that's pretty odd. That's when we want to look at anything medical underlying those things that Alison touched on a little bit ago. We want to make sure that there's no apnea, they're not snoring, they're not gasping holding their breath, we want to make sure there's no restless leg syndrome, they're not thrashing all night long, they're not complaining of any discomfort in their limbs. Because items like that could be impacting not necessarily the quantity of sleep that they're getting, but the quality of sleep that they're getting, which then makes them infinitely more likely to have one of those parasomnias. So parasomnias really can be indicative of the fact that they're not getting enough and good enough sleep as a whole.

So it's while alarming, they're actually again great data markers for us.

Another really interesting thing that I was not aware of that I saw in the book was that you mentioned the prevalence of nightmares in the middle school years, that that tends to peak. Could you talk about that a little bit? I I I was surprised by that. I think I I I think much more of nightmares with younger kids, but maybe that's because they come in more often to share them with you? I I don't know.

Yeah. I think that that sometimes is part of it is that our little kids might say it a little bit more. I think, though, that there's a lot of anxiety. And, you know, sometimes kids will I I noticed that teens, tweens, they're having nightmares not about, like, the scary monster. They're having nightmares about the tests.

They're having nightmares about something that happened with a friend. Their their nightmares are almost, like, a little bit more realistic. I don't know if there's actually, like, data on on the content of the nightmares, but I find that kids are coming in and their nightmare or teens, they're coming in about their nightmares, which are really, like, just extensions of their worry. And and for a lot of sleep work, and this is something we talk about in the book a lot also, is we really try to think about who your child is outside of their sleep stuff because that helps gives us so much context to what's actually going on and what's actually getting in the way and what's actually making things hard. So whether that's looking at, like, sleep hygiene when it comes to parasomnias in general.

Right? Because that's really our frontline treatment for all of those things, whether your kid's six and having real night terrors and things that we're really defining as a night terror or later in life, maybe it's just this confusional arousal. Sleep hygiene is always our kind of top line of defense that we wanna get them more sleep and better sleep. But I think that the nightmare piece is because it's an I see it as, like, almost an extension of the daytime thoughts.

You know, I know a lot of terms that we use in our work are now thrown out a lot in kind of the common lexicon, and sleep hygiene might be one of them. I would love to hear what sleep hygiene is from two behavioral sleep experts versus my my Instagram feed. Right. Although I'm following you guys, so I'll listen to

your what you say. I wonder if Yeah. You know, it's funny. I don't know if our definitions are exactly the same or if we say them, like, a little bit diff differently to people. But I always say, like, cleaning up the pieces of your sleep that we can control.

What you do before you go to bed, what you do when you're getting into bed. And I I like to say clean up because hygiene, that kind of, like, resonates with people a little bit. And for me, it's a lot around that, you know, whenever anyone comes to us, we have them fill out a sleep log for about a week or so to show us no matter how old they are, what time they go to bed, how long it takes to fall asleep, things like that. So a lot of times I'll say to them, here's what you're doing, and here's the parts of it that we're gonna clean up. That's called sleep hygiene because those are the things that we're gonna clean with your sleep, and we're gonna work on this or this or this.

So my I feel like my definition is probably a little looser than how Andrea may describe it, but that's those are the terms I like to use with people just to kind of, no big deal. We're gonna work on this, not to create panic around sleep hygiene.

Mhmm. Allison's just got she's just so much more engaging than I am. She's got so many cute books that I just don't have. I'm over here, like, let's talk about confusional arousals and non REM parasomnias. And she's like talking about dream planting and and sleep hygiene.

She's so much more fun than me.

We found where cheetahs are. Right.

It's just a good it's your sleep habits. I mean, I think it's the stuff that Google will in fact tell you that's like mostly accurate, I suppose. Right. And then consistency. Because I do think that Alison's right, that is the biggest piece of sleep habits or sleep hygiene that gets missed.

Yes. The stuff with pediatrician, Google tells you, you know, limiting caffeine and sugary treats before bed, limiting light exposure before bed, being active during the day, staying hydrated, having a good sound sleep, pre sleep routine before bed, all good things. The general habits again, anyone will tell you. Cool, dark, and quiet room. But the one that gets missed is the one that Alison's talking about is having consistency.

Consistency in regards to that pre sleep routine and consistency to your sleep schedule, bedtime, wake time. So really, as cute as hers is, it is the most accurate. It is probably the most important one.

It's both cute and perfect. Thanks for label, please.

If we could shift a little bit and talk about different populations, neuro atypical populations, maybe individuals with autism spectrum disorders or ADHD, and also just and we spoke about this a bit bit at the beginning, but, you know, anxiety and depression and mood dysregulation. Just could you speak a little bit about what we know from the research about sleep and ADHD? I know we have a number of listeners with kids who have attention deficit disorder.

There we go.

And a lot of challenges with sleep. Yeah. And amongst other areas

of population. Absolutely. So we I I think first what's interesting to think about is there are I think no diagnosis maybe medical or psychiatric that don't have some association with sleep difficulties. All of them. Like everything has some sort of association with sleep difficulty in possibility.

But yes, in pediatrics the diagnoses that we see the most commonly associated with sleep difficulties are children that have ADHD and autism spectrum disorder. You mentioned ADHD specifically, and I think it's a really important one to touch on because it is so highly impacted, you know, when it comes to their sleep. I think for a while it was really thought to be an issue with kind of the medication, the nature of the medication that they take being, you know, stimulant medication. But kind of as research has progressed we have this more broad based understanding of that it's so many aspects of ADHD that really impact sleep from kind of behavioral defiance or disorganization that comes with maybe that again pre sleep routine, respecting boundaries, following boundaries, being able to stick with a consistent schedule. And there are more neurological associations having to do with sleep initiation as well.

Kids with ADHD have a higher comorbidity of being phase delayed, so that kind of being a night owl struggling to go to sleep kind of at an appropriate or developmentally appropriate time. And interestingly enough, they do have a higher comorbidity with things that are more medical like restless leg syndrome. So it's hard to not almost feel discouraged I would think as a parent or a caregiver of a child with ADHD, it really feels like the odds are stacked against you when it comes to good restful sleep. But because there is more research associated with it, on the flip, there are a lot of supports and there's been a lot of progress made in terms of ways that we can help out this population specifically, which is fantastic.

Would you want to speak to that a little bit? I'm just thinking of our last podcast, You did mention that with ADHD and individuals with autism spectrum disorders, that those would be populations where maybe melatonin is considered, but you might be speaking to other types of behavioral interventions before something like melatonin. So could you just speak just to provide that little hope for our, you know, moms and dads listening with a child with ADHD who's maybe showing sleep concerns? Absolutely.

And what I will say is we had kind

of we just quickly said

as well, kids with autism spectrum disorder also have a really big struggle with sleep as well. And I would say if your child partner is on the spectrum and is struggling with sleep, the need to answer our question, gosh, you asked about fifteen minutes ago now, to find a specialist in that department is really, really important and really, really relevant. A behavioral specialist that really knows about that is going to be top of the list importance to do. Even Alison and I have good referral sources for children that are on the autism spectrum that have sleep difficulties because that concern can feel So so specific. Specific.

Children with ADHD, yes, I think there are a lot of behavioral interventions that we can use. So a lot of the things that we would do during the day, as Alison said before, we're going look at the daytime a lot, are the things that we are going to help work on at night. We are going to set a really nice foundation to help improve things like behavioral compliance. And we are going to help them become more structured. If you think about those executive functioning deficits, we are going to really layer on the supports at bedtime because every child really kind of struggles to stay really on it at bedtime.

But a child with ADHD whose medication has very likely worn off by that point is really going to struggle, or could really struggle to follow along with that bedtime routine. So we're going to layer on a little more support for them. We're going to have a hyper structured, I would say, bedtime routine with them. We're going to have very desired specific part in kind of bedtime timing with, oh my God, I'm being really redundant, what time they're going to bed. And so we're going to help layer on the structure and we're going to use a lot of behavioral principles like behavioral shaping.

We're going use a lot of kind of maybe planned ignoring if they're engaging in these more minor behaviors. I'm not tired. I don't like brushing my teeth. These jammies feel weird. And we're going to use a lot of kind of attention, labeled praise, possible reward systems to help move them toward bed, and again adding to that structure.

And then we have to really be mindful of things because if they are more likely to be phase delayed, we're going be more mindful of those sleep hygiene, sleep habit things, Keeping them away from sun and natural light at bedtime is going to be even more paramount with this population. And if we are doing again, so kind of a little callback, if we are doing all of the behavioral strategies and we are still not seeing adequate result, adequate, know, they're still taking a long time to fall asleep, this is when we can consult a pediatrician around using melatonin because it is a supportive population to use it because we do know that this is a subtype of children that really actually struggle to produce enough melatonin or at an appropriate timing, developmentally appropriate time for them. So it might be a good option on the table for them that is well supported by research.

And that's true as well. I think I lost focus there. You were talking about ADHD, but that's also true for children and teens on the spectrum, that there's research with melatonin use. Yep. Yes.

Okay.

Yeah. Just like Word vomited for about five minutes there. Yep. That makes sense.

Asked the question for about four populations, so I can't imagine why it was hard to answer all at once. You know?

So if someone is in Michigan or someone is in New Jersey, both large states, so probably I should be more specific. But, obviously, they could seek both of you out, which would be fantastic for our listeners and all of the other states in The US. Is there a recommendation, a way that you would suggest someone find an expert in behavioral sleep?

I'm blank I'm just blanking on the website. The Okay. BDS. What is that one? I can't think of it.

Oh, yeah. BDS. Yes. The oh my god. The Society for Behavioral Sleep Medicine.

You almost went real other direction. You almost went Real other side.

Yep. From I will.

I was actually and my

heart was better better. You know where I was oh. And I was overhepatic.

Along with your cough, that's also gonna happen.

Yep.

The SBSN, the Society

of Food and

Drug Medicine, is a good place. They have a good directory of people that have board certification like our colleague Doctor. Harris in behavioral sleep medicine. What is really tricky, we will say, is that yes, we are available in private practice, you know, in our states. We often still will say like, start at your pediatrician.

Are they going to have resources for you? Sure. They might. They might not. A lot of hospital systems have a sleep lab and some of those sleep labs have a pediatric department that should in theory have a psychologist or some sort of mental health professional on staff that does know about behavioral sleep medicine in the pediatric population.

So they could be a good place to start as well. It's really tricky. The pediatric sleep field is the size of my pinky nail. It feels really, really small. And I think it is made a little bit more complicated by kind of social media and people that just have so many opinions on sleep and pediatric sleep and thoughts on what to do and what not to do.

And you really want to be thoughtful about working with a professional who has I think the adequate training and understanding. Because again, while some of these behavioral principles are not rocket science at all, think it is important that we have this real foundational understanding of what healthy sleep is and the possible medical complications that there could be that we always want to be mindful of. So if it were my child, I would really want someone who has, I think, that real experience and training in that department.

Very good. So just to say that again, because I know we had a good laugh there, it's the Society for Behavioral Sleep Medicine. Is that correct? You can look there. Correct me if I'm wrong, if someone maybe had a child on the autism spectrum, there might be someone with that specialty listed on that site.

So not only having the sleep expertise, but also additional expertise. We had an expert in autism come on a few weeks back, and she was commenting similar thing. That's a bit small field, hard to find people. And she was even saying that sometimes, even if there's not an expert in your area, there might be someone that you could get on a Zoom call for, like, a a quarterly touch base or, you know, there there are different ways to do it, but people have to be fastidious and really looking and going going to places to find experts, you know, that that do that know about what you need.

Yeah. I think Yeah. Allison and I both have. Yeah. Sorry.

Yeah. We we both have what, you know, PsyPact, so we can we see people in lots of different states, which is a really nice thing that psychologists can do now. But something I'll often tell people when they're searching those websites is to look at the states around their state. Right? So, like, a lot of people in New Jersey are licensed in New York and Connecticut and Pennsylvania.

So, you know, if you live wherever you live, it's sometimes worth it to call people around because a lot of times they can see you on a Zoom somewhere. You know, kind of nearby, so don't limit your search when you're looking for someone to just, like, you know, within five minutes of where you live. Telehealth is great, and so many people in so many states can see people in other places. So it can be worth, you know, a half hour of phone calls to to potentially find you know, to be able to find more people that can actually help you with what you're looking for.

That is very, very good good advice. I think that's a wonderful space for us to sort of wrap up for today. Again, we wanna encourage everybody that has teens or tweens or children, younger children, obviously, with sleep problems to check out the Essential Guide to Children's Sleep by Dr. Roth, Dr. Shale, and Dr.

Harris. You can pick that up on Amazon or wherever you like to get your books. Additionally, if you have any questions for us or feedbacks for us or feedback on this episode or any others, don't hesitate to reach out. We'd be delighted to hear from you. Just DM us on Instagram.

Doctor. Roth, Doctor. Schale, thank you so much for joining us again. Really Thank appreciate this

you.

All right. See you soon.

And now a quick word from our lawyers. The Parenting Pair Podcast is designed for informational and educational purposes only. Do not rely on the information presented in this podcast as a substitute or replacement for professional psychological or medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. If you have concerns about you or a family member's well-being, please contact a licensed mental health professional or physician.