Understanding & Supporting the Teen You Have- Autism & Adolescence with Dr. Lauren Turner Brown

We think about autism and kind of immediately go to transitions are hard, right? One of the kind of core challenges that is part of the diagnosis of autism. But one of the things that I actually find is that autistic children really thrive on routine and predictability. So, yes, the transition can be tricky, but one thing's teachers are really good at is being predictable and how creating routines and creating kind of consistency day to day.

Welcome back to the Parenting Parent Podcast. I'm Dr. Annalise Caron.

And I'm Dr. Suzanne Allen.

And today, we are super excited because we have our first guest who is joining us, doctor Lauren Turner Brown. She is an expert in autism, and I have talked to her a number of times. She'll be sharing her expertise today with us on parenting teens and tweens with autism, particularly during times of transition. It's the start of the school year, the fall, and we thought it would be really great to hear from her. So I'm just going to read a little bit about her background to kind of frame why we think that she can really help us a good bit.

Doctor Turner Brown is a licensed clinical psychologist and expert in autism spectrum disorders. She's worked with individuals on the autism spectrum and their families for over twenty years. She has experience working with ASD across the lifespan and with a range of comorbid conditions, including anxiety, ADHD, the full gamut of, you know, mental health concerns. She has been in private practice for the last six years, but also has served as the assistant director of the University of North Carolina's teach autism program. She's directed numerous research projects, published well over 30 papers and chapters, in the area, and trained professionals really around the world.

So we think that she will have some expertise that will be really helpful to our listeners and their families. The one thing I will say about Lauren is that whenever we speak, she always just has sort of a really grounded way of approaching things, and so it always makes me feel a little bit reassured. So welcome, Lauren.

Thank you so much. That was so nice.

Happy to be here.

Well, we are happy to have you. I think what what where we thought we could kind of frame our discussion today is and whether you're a parent of, you know, a child on the autism autism spectrum or really a parent of a child with any sort of neurodevelopmental difference, I think there's a lot of shoulds that parents in general feel, but these parents in particular feel. And those shoulds lead to pressures and feeling sometimes like they're not doing enough or aren't being enough or their child isn't, you know, going in a direction that they believe maybe they should be. And so we thought that we could kind of talk about some of those pressures that parents feel around those shoulds.

Mhmm. And particularly, I think times of transitions, right at the start of a school year, I imagine there's a lot of messaging, I think, that many parents get of, you know, getting kids back on their school, sleep schedule, school lunch, you know, all of those kinds of things.

Yeah. Sure. So so let me maybe we'll just jump right in, Lauren, and ask you, you know, when, you know, children on the autism spectrum or teens and tweens in particular are transitioning back to school, what kind of pressures do parents feel? I think there's a lot of worry about

that. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, we think about autism and kind of immediately go to transitions are hard. Right? That's one of the kind of core challenges that that is part of the diagnosis of autism.

But I think so there's a

lot of worry about it. Right? And especially if you're going to a new school, to a middle school or a high school or or something where where there's not a lot of knowns, that can be be nerve racking. But one of the things that I actually find is that, you know, autistic children really thrive on routine and predictability. So, yes, the transition can be tricky, but one thing teachers are really good at is being predictable and creating routines and creating kind of consistency day to day.

And so that initial kind of adjustment can be hard as it can be for any child. But, really, a lot of kids with autism actually really thrive during school times because there's a lot of structure and routine in their day that and and it's those times of, like, holidays or breaks when everyone thinks, oh, we can have a nice break. We can kind of just have some downtime where kids can have a really hard time because what am I supposed to do? What's the plan? I don't know Mhmm.

What what my order of activities is today or what's gonna happen. So, you know, yes, it can be it can be challenging, but it also can create, like, a nice new routine for us all to get back into that can be can can reduce a lot of worry for the kids.

That's that's a really good point.

Yeah. You saying that, it's so interesting. I think I've worked with a number of families with young people with ADHD, and how distressing and difficult it can feel as, you know, because they feel so different from other parents sometimes as vacations approach, as summer approaches, weekends, you know, a half day of school that for other families feels like a relief or something to look forward to, and you know, they feel very different from other parents in that because it's actually a time they don't look forward to.

Yeah. It can be really tricky. And and one one little strategy that I think can be very helpful is just trying to think about not trying to make your home life or your vacation life or anything be as structured as school because no family's gonna really function that way. But what are a few things you could do? Could you write a list of these are the things we're gonna probably do on Saturday?

What are some things you wanna put in there? And, like, just have it written on a on the bulletin board or a note on the phone of these are some of the things. It doesn't have to be regimented, but just setting out a plan of what the expectations are for those week long weekends or, you know, breaks to give a little bit more structure. Because what can happen is is that the child with autism, if they don't have the structure, they're gonna decide what it should be. Right?

They're gonna decide what the structure should be, and it may not be what a parent has in mind. You know? It may be I'm gonna, you know, be on my my, devices all day long, or I'm gonna you know? They have an idea. So if you can kind of give them a plan, then that can that can help.

And that's really what school does. Now, certainly, there are kids that struggle with school. It's not there's nothing that's universal here. But I do think the structure of school can be really, really nice for I've seen a lot of kids thrive in sort of year round school where the breaks aren't quite as long. Interesting.

The structure is more consistent.

Right. And I think when you were talking about just making the plan for the winter break or for the Saturdays or whatever it is, I can imagine that that's not only grounding for the child or teen, you know, with autism, but also grounding for the parent. Because it's like, oh, okay. This is what we're going to do in the afternoon, and I have a plan for that so that it feels less out of control for them. I I

would imagine. You can make it a mix of what are our need to do things and what are our want to do things and and and and make it collaborative so it's not an adult and a parent saying, this is what you're doing, but, like Right. Let's put together a plan. Here's some spaces where we don't have anything going on, and now you know when you can put in your your whatever it is that you wanna do.

That's really that's really helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Even just the reassurance of thinking about a school transition as actually being helpful and not Yeah. Too overwhelming.

Another aspect I think that parents across the board have worries about, particularly during the middle school years when there's so much, you know, for neurotypical kids, so much change in terms of friendship groups and how things are navigated. But particularly for, you know, tweens and teens on the autism spectrum, socializing can be difficult anyway or not be of as much interest to them. I'm curious, you know, in terms of parents that I've worked with often feel that their child should be doing more or they should be doing more as parents to quote, unquote help or direct the socializing of their child, and that provides a lot of anxiety for the parents. Do you have any thoughts about that? Kind of the the shoulds about how we navigate this, whether to get extra support.

What do you think? Sure.

Yeah. No. I mean, social challenges are sort of at the core, again, of of a diagnosis of autism, and and being able to make friends, keep friends, understand friends, or understand relationships is can be very challenging. But I think what can happen is we can then think, so what we need to do is fix that. Right?

We need to change that. We need to make their social world like what we think it should look like. And, I think sometimes that can cause a lot of tension and a lot of pressure on a child with autism to then be worried about, am I doing it right or not right? And so particularly around middle school and high school, I think really taking a step back and looking at what kind of social world does the child seem to want. So if if your if your tween is sort of pretty content with going to school and they have someone that they talk to in their math class that if they have to pair up, they can work together, or they could ask what the homework was.

But maybe they don't have phone numbers or a text or get together, but there's someone that's comfortable for them to talk to, and that's plenty. You know, that's really what they what they really want socially. You know, that may be a kid where this is not a time to try to change anything.

This is Right.

They're getting what they get what they need. They're pretty happy with that. And then you may have another child who is desperate to make friends, and trying all the wrong things, or or trying with all the wrong peers. You know, a lot of times, it's picking out a peer to be a friend with that's not really a great choice Right. Or the or match.

And in that situation, that may be a time where the child's trying. They're recognizing it's not working. They want something different where some kind of intervention or support might be helpful, because they they're showing some some insight into this is hard for me, and also some desire for it to be different. But I do think I do think just because they have a diagnosis of autism, they should be getting social skills help is not necessarily always true. Sometimes they're very happy with their social world as it is, even though it may not look like what their parents or, you know, what we think it should look like.

They may not be a big friendship group. There may not be a lot of birthday party invitations, but, honestly, they don't like birthday parties. So Right. That's okay. You know?

Yeah. And everything you just said there, I really heard, you know, kind of what is suiting the child as opposed to what's suiting the parents' worries or shoulds about what it what it should be. And I think when if parents can really lean into that, I imagine that, you know, and and buy into that idea that it's okay that maybe their child doesn't get the invites or doesn't have the phone numbers. If they can come to really appreciate that, and I have a question about that, Lauren, but Uh-huh. That that's so relieving that it's freeing.

So you're not you know, if the child's happy with it yeah.

Yeah. Can be very freeing. And I think I think, you know, there are still things parents can do to try to, like, create opportunities for more connection. But a lot of times, I find those are more around the child's interests. So if they really like, you know, musicals or something, can they get involved on the tech crew at the at the you know, or the club that does drama, or they love anime?

Is there some an, you know, an anime group at the library that they could join where they there's connections based on common interests, and and kids, you know, autistic kids can really love their interests. They can get really excited about it and gain a lot of expertise. And so meeting other kids that share that interest is like the best place for them to maybe work on social skills or practice. But it's also just what they would enjoy. Right?

And we're all gonna be better socially when we're doing something that we enjoy. Mhmm. So

This is so helpful to think about. I I it's bringing me to some conversations I've had with parents at times, so I'm curious of your thoughts about this, where where are parents not sure whether their their teen or tween is content with the lack of social life or not, and and whether maybe they're fearful that like there depressive symptoms involved, that that may be more related to kind of isolation. So I'm just curious your thoughts on that, where where parents are really struggling to to want to honor who their child is, But also questioning, like, are there other things going on here that that we should be treating or looking at? And, you know, how much do I honor this, and and or should I be quote unquote kind of pushing a little bit more?

Yeah. I think that's a tricky one, and I think that's. Sorry. It's so nuanced. But but I mean, it is, you know, when we think about depression and these these social isolation that can come, when you ask a lot of kids with autism, they're gonna score really high on that, and it may reflect the depression, and it may just reflect that that's part of kind of who they are.

I think looking for changes, you know, if you see a change, so a child that was working really hard or trying really hard to connect and is pulled back and is not trying anymore, I think that might be a good indicator that, like, this is not just them being content with not having friends. They've just kind of given up. Right? And that may be a place to do it. So a change would be one.

And then, you know yeah, I think that might be an opening to sort of talk about maybe alright. What would you like it to look like in a year if we could what would be some things that you would want different for next year? And that might be a good thing to do in those times of transition of like, alright. We're going into tenth grade. How how what do you want different this year than last year?

And if you hear friends or relationships kind of coming up there, then that might be an end to kind of think about, alright. Well, what are some things we could do? Could we help you with finding some clubs? Could we help you with connecting you with a professional that may, have some ideas about that?

Let me ask you that. I'm I'm really hearing loud and clear that that in terms of getting additional support, whether that be a social skills training or a therapist with regard to friendship type of stuff, you know, I'm I'm hearing from you when the child is interested or the child sort of wants it or the teen wants it, that that's a message you're sending. Are there any other times because I also heard you say if they're not really interested in their content, let them be. Let them kind of live the in the way that's most effective and feels good to them. Are there any other times that or or specific moments in life, you know, that you would say this is a good time for social skills or or would be more likely to recommend it?

Yeah. Yeah. No. That's I definitely and I think, one I think about when I think about teenagers is, you know, they're wanting to get a job, you know, maybe a summer job, or they're wanting to, you know, they're they're transitioning out of high school. Maybe they're going college, and they might have a roommate, or they're transitioning to an employment situation out of high school.

And there are skills that you need to have to to to do well on a job interview or to get along with coworkers or to manage having a roommate in a dorm, or meeting a whole bunch of new, students at college or in a workplace. And I think when you have those situations, it can be sort of, alright. We have a goal. We have something specific where actually conforming a bit to what the norms are in a jobs interview actually may be really important. Right?

We may need to know how to, you know, interact and do use those social niceties that maybe seem silly or pointless to a lot of autistic children and fair. Right? But we we kinda have to do it in a job interview. So those are some times where I think maybe working a bit on social skills and preparation can be helpful. Mhmm.

And then also when there are real challenges. Right? When there are child's getting in trouble for saying things that maybe aren't appropriate, or they are you know, they're you're finding challenges with your with siblings at home, and and there's some dynamic there. But I think when when you see that, I think, particularly if it's within the family, trying to think about how everyone is involved in social interaction. So social interaction between two people requires two people.

And so Mhmm. If there are difficulties with siblings or with the parent child interactions, being thoughtful about, okay. Yes. Maybe they need some skills or there's some skills they're lacking or they're not using things skills in the right moment. But what am I doing?

What could I maybe do differently too? And Mhmm. Recognizing maybe both people need to be a little flexible with what expectations are and what behaviors are to make a relationship better.

I think that's a really great point that that, you know, that there's two side. Right? There's two people in a dynamic in a relationship, and I think that that is a social skill for all of us. Right? We we mirror each other, we tend to adjust in relationships.

You know, I say to teens like how you'd speak to your teammate and your friend is gonna look different than how you speak to your teacher or your parent. Right? And so understanding that, you know, from siblings, from adults maybe who are not autistic or not on the autism spectrum, right, that we can make adjustments too to help improve relationships and also have a better understanding of what young people might need and what might help them be more successful.

And one one other thing socially, I think, is trying to find other neurodivergent teens for the kids to connect with can also be really a nice way because there Yeah. There sometimes is like a a shared understanding or a shared way of interacting that can feel very calming and comfortable and and nice. And so sometimes that's through those interest kinds of groups, but, you know, there may be other ways in your community for for kids to do that because that you know, being around people that see the world the way you do can be very, very reassuring.

Right. Well, when Yeah. When you when you just think about it, who do we all tend to want to be around? People who understand us and people who have similar interests to us. And so I would imagine that it's no different

Right.

Exactly. You know, for for a teen on the autism spectrum and may also come with less pressure because of our neurotypical friend just might is a more challenging friend maybe to get along with or understand in certain ways. Right. Yeah. Exactly.

So moving on to a different should, another should I sometimes hear from parents just has to do with their own worries about, you know, because developmentally during adolescence, you know, there's a lot of movement towards autonomy, more independence, you know, quote unquote doing different things. And I think parents sometimes feel like, you know, their child should be doing more on their own or doing more independently. And and I think that's, you know, very likely true. But do you have any guidance? Everyone's at their own pace in their own time to help parents because I I think it's very easy to look at other either neurotypical children or or other children on autism spectrum and say, oh, wow.

They've really progressed in this area. They've really progressed, you know, maybe in their in their social skills, or they've really progressed, you know, with their language. And my my child hasn't, and and that can create a lot of anxiety, particularly when, you know, neurotypical kids are starting to drive and starting to do other things that maybe just come a little bit later or or may not be coming for that child. How how do you support parents, or what can parents think to themselves to help relieve themselves of those shoulds?

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, by high school, a lot of parents are recognizing that their kid is on their own their own sort of path. And what that may mean is that they may be ahead of their peers in certain courses and way behind their peers in showing any interest in learning to drive. Right? So recognizing that sort of scattered profile is a lot of times very just part of it part of it with autism is is, I think, in accepting that, which I do find a lot of times by high school parents kind of get this.

But but there's some parents that are just new to this diagnosis. You know? The child maybe didn't get it until later, and so it takes a while to figure that out. But I do and I think one of the things that can happen is when you're a parent who has been working on communication and their and social skills and all these things over the years, you're thinking about all these things they should be doing. You're thinking about grades, and maybe they're they're you're you're thinking about academics and keeping up.

And you sort of deprioritize some of those basic independent things like, are we getting up and getting ourselves stressed in the morning? Are we learning how to do some basic chores around the house? Are we or maybe those things cause such challenges that you sort of just quit trying on it. And one thing that we actually some of the research has shown is that, like, these daily living skills, really basic daily living skills in childhood are strongly predictive of of outcome in adulthood for for autistic children, maybe even more so than, like, whether you're making the best grades. And so if you think about what we see in a lot of adults is this underemployment challenge.

So autistic very bright autistic adults are not working in settings that are quite at their their intellectual level. They're working Mhmm. They've got a math degree from the local college, and they're working at the the grocery store, bagging groceries. So one of the things that contributes to that is some of this independence kinds of things on, like, being able to do some of these early everyday daily living things. So I think it is important to at least prioritize it somewhat, not necessarily on the same pace as your neighbor or your sibling, but

Right.

Not least side of it. And what I always recommend is just trying to make trying to consider is why they're not doing these things because they don't understand the steps. They don't really know why, and they don't understand it. And how can I make it really clear, really explicit, like, what the steps are to, you know, keep your room clean or to help with dinner or to go learn how to, you know, do driver's ed? What can we do to make it really explicit and clear?

How can we make it so that there's no lack of understanding? And that at least takes away some piece of the challenge for them. And then and then just, you know, go go small, but don't lose sight of it. Right? Take baby steps, but don't lose sight of it.

That is that is a really, really good point about And

I think helpful about being curious about why it's not happening, because sometimes, right, all of us as parents, no matter what type of child we're parenting, right, it's it's the should, and they should be more independent, know, these people are doing this or that, and then we jump to, so here's how we're gonna get them to do it, and just taking that step back and being curious of what's getting in the way of this. Is it not a clear understanding? Is it because they just haven't had an opportunity or activity in which to to try that yet? Is it, you know, like, what are the things leading to this? And so then what do I do instead of now we're just gonna make them do it?

Right. Yeah. So I mean, a really simple thing like, you know, autistic people tend to understand things that are very concrete better than things that are abstract. And we don't realize how much of what we say about, like, how to take care of ourselves and our space is abstract. Like, clean your room or do the dishes.

Like, what does that exactly mean? Right? What is and and even taking something very simple like clean your room and saying, all shirts go in the top drawer, all pants folded in the middle drawer, dirty clothes go in the basket in your closet, You know, very specific. That is what clean your room is. And so trying if you try giving more specific instructions rather than this big one, you can kinda tease out is understanding part of the problem here.

Maybe they didn't know what I meant. And probably, like, what one mom means about cleaning your room is very different than another mom or dad. Like, we don't know. It's all a little bit, like, we you know, subjective. Right?

Yeah. So being really explicit and clear, and that can help you figure out maybe there if there's an understanding issue.

That's really helpful. Yeah. Really helpful. I'm curious just to switch a little bit over to the the teenager now or or tweenager that we might be talking about. In your experience, in your years of work with families, Are there any shoulds that the the teenager almost wishes their parent would know?

Like like, I just if they just understood this about me. Or, you know, do you hear things from kids that you've worked with? Or, you know, if only my parent would understand this, like, things would be better. Because I think so often, you know, in our own anxiety as parents, we as as Suzanne was saying, you know, try to change, try to direct, try it has to be this way. Just is is there anything that that it would be helpful for parents to hear from an autism expert that a lot of teens sometimes feel?

Yeah. I mean, I think they I think they like to be you know, they like when others show interest in what they are interested in. So that's one area where, you know, sitting down and learning how to play the video game or, you know, joining in on a conversation about maps and what's interesting about this geography that you're learning, that that's one that I think kids would would take and go with and love. And then I think the other is this one we talked about before with social skills of it's not just me that needs to necessarily change, but maybe we both need to be part of this. How do we make it better?

And and rather than I'm always the one that has the the The problem. The problem or yes. Or the need to be different.

Yeah.

And so really really being able to I think we talked about this earlier about just appreciating who I am, even though it's maybe not who you saw me to be or wanted me to be or thought my life might be, but where I

am

now and finding the good and and what's going on now. Yeah. Wonderful.

And, you know, we're hearing you say that too. Think so much that that for any adolescent, that's such a huge thing, right, because as parents we kind of have these stories about who our kids are when they're little, right, and and what they like and what they're gonna be. And I think part of adolescence is really stepping back and starting to see that like, oh my gosh, like they they actually like this, or they're trying, you know, or or this is who I thought they were, but they're a little bit different. And so that's kind of an area of growth for parents across the board in adolescence is is learning to see who their young person is in connection to them, and also as a totally independent person. I think that's great advice for all parents and

Right. Yeah. I mean, I don't think I think most of the things that we find are helpful for autistic children are probably helpful for any you know, it's it maybe some kids don't need as much of it, but but the strategies are generally can be helpful for any any kind of teen, I think. Yeah.

I just have to say I have loved this discussion. I think the last question we'd have for you is really for our listeners. Okay. You know, as sort of and it's a two part question. One, how do people you know, you're you've obviously put your career very focused on, you know, individuals with autism, but people find, you know, practitioners, mental health practitioners that have the expertise they need.

And if they're maybe in an area of the country or a place that doesn't quite have the kind of, you know, expert in autism that you are, where can they go? What what what guidance would you give them when they feel they might need it?

Yeah. No. That's a good question, and it's a real challenge because there there certainly are those of us who specialize in this, but there are a lot of mental health practitioners that did not and did not get a lot of education about autism. And so then and and as we know, the numbers of people that have autism has grown while the number of professionals probably has not kept up with that growth. And so it can be really hard, a long waiting list.

I mean, a year to get in to see the expert. Yep. And and sometimes that's not feasible, to do, or there isn't someone in your town. So I think that if you you know, when you're talking to if you're seeking professional help, and there's not someone that you can go to regularly that has the expertise, interviewing the people that you might work with to ask about their willingness and openness to take on a client with autism. Some some a lot of clinicians have worked with kids with autism whether they knew it or not.

They they they had them in their practice. Maybe they weren't diagnosed. Maybe it wasn't why they came to see them, but they've had that experience. And so what finding clinicians who are willing to maybe be flexible in their approach, maybe to go a little slower in some of the you know, maybe something was supposed to be done in one session, they're gonna do it over three. Maybe they're willing to make things visual.

You know, that's a really good strategy for, helping kids with autism understand is visual. So I I do almost all of my therapy with a whiteboard table. We draw everything. So is this a clinician that's willing to to try that kind of thing or make make that implicit piece very explicit and clear? I think those are some questions to ask.

Are they willing to try? And then if you can find that expert, and maybe have them as someone that you could consult with maybe once a year or check-in with, or every few years go back for an update of sorts so that you have someone you can connect with, but maybe they aren't an every, every week or every month kind of kind of person, then you can have some collaboration. And then also using your school resources. I mean, schools the schools know a lot about these kids, and and there are people there that know your kids, and and may be also able to help. And then I guess the last would be like parent groups.

You know, there's a lot of parent groups, and they they will be able to say, oh, yeah. They don't say autism on their website, but they're really good with, you know, asking other parents because they're they generally know know more than anybody.

No. I can imagine. Wonderful. I have appreciated this discussion so much. We really appreciate you taking the time to join us today.

We hope

do it.

You know, at some point, we might ask you back for Oh, wrap up too. This was fun. I really appreciate it. Yeah. So I think that wraps us up

for today. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me.

If anyone has any feedback, any questions for us, or any information that you'd like us to share with, doctor Turner Brown, please don't hesitate to email us at hello@theparentingpair.com. You also can, of course, DM us on Instagram at the parenting pair. And, Suzanne, what are

we talking about next week? We're gonna be touching on depression and That's right. One common symptom that a lot of parents see anhedonia, which is kinda like the blahs and and lack of interest, losing interest, kind of energy, and how parents can better understand this and help their teens. Wonderful.

Alright. Thank you so much.

Alright. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye. Bye.

And now a quick word from our lawyers. The Parenting Pair Podcast is designed for informational and educational purposes only. Do not rely on the information presented in this podcast as a substitute or replacement for professional psychological or medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. If you have concerns about you or a family member's well-being, please contact a licensed mental health professional or physician.